Cultural Appropriation

[JamesByrne]

Re: Cultural Appropriation

Same, and I spelled it jipped as well. I had NO idea it had anything to do with gypsies until I was about 18 or so. No one else I know knew it came from those roots either.

It could be from the Irish version its nothing to do with gypsies here though. Jipped means ejaculated on. Manys the cup of tea thats come down peoples noses hearing "I got jipped at the market today". Also fanny is vagina, its funny hearing people say "I keep my money in my fanny pack" eh I'll pay for the lunch so, you hold onto your money. You can never tell whos been to jail and who hasnt when youre dealing with tourists. haha!

[Tylluan Penry]

Re: Cultural Appropriation

Thats interesting, I had no idea that Welsh people didnt get on with English people. The only experience I have of the cultures meeting are my cousins so Ive never seen that rivalry. Is it over the mines closing in the 80s or is it more a defining yourself by the contrast between you and your nearest neighbours?

It's extremely bad sometimes. In Victorian times there was something called the Welsh Not, which was a piece of board on a string with 'WN' or 'Welsh Not'. Teachers in Wales handed these out to children 'caught' speaking in Welsh, and the child wearing the WN at the end of the day got thrashed.

Believe me, there has never been much love lost between the English and the Welsh.... and it's nothing to do with the mines in the 1980's although that didn't help. It goes much, much further back.

Years ago, my friend's Irish relatives used to visit once a year and I would often be at the house when they did. I remember mentioning to the mother that some of my family were Irish and she smiled and said, 'Well they would be. Everyone is Irish at the end of the day.'

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It could be from the Irish version its nothing to do with gypsies here though. Jipped means ejaculated on. Manys the cup of tea thats come down peoples noses hearing "I got jipped at the market today". Also fanny is vagina, its funny hearing people say "I keep my money in my fanny pack" eh I'll pay for the lunch so, you hold onto your money. You can never tell whos been to jail and who hasnt when youre dealing with tourists. haha!

And don't even mention faggots and peas....;-)

[DrStrange]

Re: Cultural Appropriation

There is nothing wrong with being proud of belonging to a culture. I am proud to be Geordie and hate that the dialect has been watered down with slang: 'don't' is 'diven't' in Geordie, not 'deen't' as the young'un's are saying. The dialect is almost dead now and that's sad. So in this respect, I wish to honour and uphold my heritage. However, I have a contact in Germany, who speaks English with a Geordie accent, and likes to practise with me. This is no way offensive, and in fact, I am flattered, that someone outside of the north east, cares about the dialect, and not just the accent, as famed by Big Brother and Ant and Dec.

The danger, is when you get possesive about your heritage. What? You were BORN and I should be impressed? You managed to squeeze your way out of your mother's lady hole, and that is the one acheivement, in your entire life, that you have to hold onto and be proud about. Anyone who thinks that where they were born is an accomplishment, really needs to rethink their entire life, because if that's the best they have managed... Oh dear.

There's also the fact that being born in a particular country does not mean that is the whole story of "your" culture. Especially in a nation like Scotland, a native of which could be a descendant of Picts, Celts, Norsemen or Saxons - or, indeed, any combination of the four.

[Ophidia]

Re: Cultural Appropriation

It's strange, but I've always known that welshing, jewing and gypping are culturally insensitive terms - but I'm related to people who also say 'nigger-rigging' (meaning something engineered out of whatever's handy - most people now say 'jimmy-rigging' or 'MacGuyvering'). I get embarrassed when I'm around people who use terms like those without knowing they can still be offensive. A few years ago lot of the younger Latinos at work were into this habit of calling one another 'guey' (it's Spanish for a 'bull with no horns' - a cuckold, man who lets his wife cheat on him) - they weren't using it seriously, but they were doing it in hearing range of guests. My coworkers all ended up in Diversity training because of guest complaints.

Many of my family members today still hate gypsies, and I've known a lot of people here in Las Vegas, especially in the hotel industry, who loathe 'gypsies'. I don't know that anyone I know has even encountered true descendants of the Romani (as far as I know, I haven't, and if I have I've never had one tell me, 'hey, I'm a gypsy!'), or been cheated or somehow damaged by said descendants, but there's always been an undercurrent of talk about how bad they are for the hospitality industry. I imagine once the 'reality' show (and I do use that term loosely) American Gypsies gets popular, that talk is going to start popping up again, more vocally and even uglier.

It's so much simpler to say, "I feel I've been short-changed" or "You've cheated me". Everyone knows what the words mean, and they're only offensive to the person who has potentially cheated you out of something.

[Medusa]

Re: Cultural Appropriation

I MacGuyver every day. Being poor does that for you.

[DanieMarie]

Re: Cultural Appropriation

Many of my family members today still hate gypsies, and I've known a lot of people here in Las Vegas, especially in the hotel industry, who loathe 'gypsies'. I don't know that anyone I know has even encountered true descendants of the Romani (as far as I know, I haven't, and if I have I've never had one tell me, 'hey, I'm a gypsy!'), or been cheated or somehow damaged by said descendants, but there's always been an undercurrent of talk about how bad they are for the hospitality industry. I imagine once the 'reality' show (and I do use that term loosely) American Gypsies gets popular, that talk is going to start popping up again, more vocally and even uglier.

I've never seen Roma people outside of Europe before. That's not to say they don't at all live in other continents, but they're not too common in North America. I do hear a lot of people on forums talking about the culture or claiming they're descendents, but I have a strong feeling that, based on these descriptions, these people confuse the Roma with Eastern European folk culture (NOT the same thing....if your family were Romanian peasants, they were NOT Roma). To be honest, they're still well-hated over here, not so much because of the group they belong to, but because of the fact that many still panhandle and pickpocket in the streets. In some countries they can also be a burden on some of the social systems and that tends to breed resentment. They DO face a lot of unwarranted prejudice though, especially in Eastern Europe.

For the record, I don't use the term, and I've been subject to an attempted Roma scam (in Paris). I don't think it's fair to judge the entire group by the negative actions of some members of that group.

[Ophidia]

Re: Cultural Appropriation

To be honest, they're still well-hated over here, not so much because of the group they belong to, but because of the fact that many still panhandle and pickpocket in the streets. ... For the record, I don't use the term, and I've been subject to an attempted Roma scam (in Paris). I don't think it's fair to judge the entire group by the negative actions of some members of that group.

We've got loads of panhandlers, short-change artists, muggers, you name it, here - the weather's nice, people have money, people with money are often drunk & easily swindled or robbed. Most of our panhandlers dress like 'urban casual homeless'. Nothing they do or say would make me think, "ooh, that's a freakin' gypsy!" I mean, just from looking at someone, how would you guess 'Romani'?

These people, to me, look like they dressed up as Italian mobsters. The black hair & skin tone make me think eastern European or Mediterranean, but they could be South American - or from the east coast of the US. The one guy in the blue tie looks a lot like one of our VIP casino hosts, lol. But if they came to the front desk, I wouldn't automatically suspect them of attempting to con me any more than any other guest is. Even if they came to the front desk in traditional attire throwing stereotypes left & right, I'd still treat them as nicely as I do any other person.



I've led us way off topic, anyway, but it made me think... in some cultures, theft is actually seen as honorable and swindling people is perfectly acceptable. A lot of cultural misappropriation never seems to include things like that. I wonder why it's so easy for people to draw the line at illegal or unacceptable behaviors when they're choosing what traditions to steal?

[DanieMarie]

Re: Cultural Appropriation

We've got loads of panhandlers, short-change artists, muggers, you name it, here - the weather's nice, people have money, people with money are often drunk & easily swindled or robbed. Most of our panhandlers dress like 'urban casual homeless'. Nothing they do or say would make me think, "ooh, that's a freakin' gypsy!" I mean, just from looking at someone, how would you guess 'Romani'?

Well like I said, they're a distinct cultural and ethnic group. They keep separate from the cultures they live in, and dress differently (the women usually wear long skirts and cover their heads, but not in the same style that turkish and middle eastern women do). They originated from India and since they favour staying in their communities (well that and the fact that for most of history, they were also excluded from local communities), they still look more Indian than European. Not to say it's founded that people hate them. Most are pretty harmless. Many panhandle, but in a harmless way (and there are lots of other people panhandling too, and in more obnoxious ways). Usually they just wander around asking if people "Speak English? Deutsch? Francais?" Many are also very talented musicians and busk, usually around various cafes and parks...they've got some great folk music. But yeah, you can definitely tell when someone is Romani. Maybe not in the US though. I think more Romani in the US assimilate. There are communities here that do, and I think they don't face so much discrimination. I think people tend to mistrust the more "traditional" communities that tend to live on the fringes of society. People tend to mistrust that in general (they dislike the German squatter punks just as much!)

[Maria de Luna]

Re: Cultural Appropriation

Cultural appropriation is apparently a big deal to a few people, I have not met alot of people who have been at least vocal about these things, but I guess I have been guilty of doing it myself. To be clear I was raised by my grandparents who for some reason or another were (and still are) pretty damn rascist. I went to a football game and got my face painted by a friends mother so we could cheer for different teams, I picked one my family cheered for, don't remember if they were actually playing but I was seven so who cared, right? I came back home and showed my grandfather expecting him to be proud of me for cheering for the "right" team... I was told that only savages painted their faces and if I was going to act like one I would have to live like one and would not be allowed back into his house like that. Needless to say, this wasnt the best environment to learn about other cultures. I decided I was going to try and accept all cultures after that because, well, it made no sense to me. So when I went back to live with my mom and dad I tried to learn about everything, the cultures I knew were a part of me and my families history, and the ones which weren't. If i liked parts and tried to emulate them it wasn't out of any sort of disrespect, it was because I was fascinated by something so different from my "norm." Alot of things I adopted when I was younger are gone now, but I have a similar approach now, the difference is that I try to show care when dealing with other cultures and their beliefs, but I know not everyone is, believe me I know. Something that one person may look at and say is offensive someone else from the same culture may not. As for languages, when I was little I was told that everyone should just learn english... so never learned. Have tried to learn some recently, and was told by a PR friend of mine that my spanish was so bad I may as well just keep speaking English... I think Ill just try sign language, I can't get that accent wrong... Can I?

[Shahaku]

Re: Cultural Appropriation

Tylluan: Most of what I know about the Welsh comes from "The Dark is Rising" series, which probably isn't the best source, though I always found the spelling/pronunciation of words interesting. I'm also familiar with the term welshing, but I never thought to associate it with the Welsh people.

[Dez]

Re: Cultural Appropriation

Sorry to be backing up so far

Anyhow, it seems fair to me to assume that when it comes to how much you're "allowed" in the Hispanic culture, it comes down to what YOU are comfortable with, not what THEY would accept. I mean, if you were raised eating a certain food, speaking a certain amount of a language, and so on, it's as much a part of who you are as a part of who they are. The way I see it, you own it as much as they do. Even if they had ancestors that lived that practice, it doesn't take away from your experience.

I'm not quite as worried about offending someone with my Spanish, as when religion comes into the mix. Like when I had a little alter with a white cloth, candles, and conchas as a way of "introducing myself" to the spirits in the neighborhood last week. Intentionally or not, it ended up looking a lot like things I've seen out for Dia de los Muertos before. It's things like that which make me worry about accidentally rubbing someone the wrong way. It seems as though there are a lot of Seventh-Day Adventists in my neighborhood, though, if people are religious at all (other then that it seems pretty general Santa Muerte imagery, etc), so if anyone notices I might just get a "Witch!" reaction either way. We'll just have to see what happens. Thanks for that, though...I don't feel like such a poser for shopping at the mercado etc., thinking about it that way. I think the conclusion most of my coworkers at my job came to was to treat sort of like I was Hispanic American, but long enough back that my Spanish wasn't very good anymore, especially since I get most of the cultural cues and references.

I guess the language issue comes down to the culture. I've heard that when we try to speak to French people in French, it's not unusual to be met with a rude response, yet I've been lucky enough to only have to speak to natives who enjoy attempts by foreighners to speak their language and explore their culture. The Germans enjoy giving long explanations of grammar similar to Tylluan's experience in Athens (I feel your pain!). Then the Japanese will tell you your fractured attempt at their language is PERFECT and you sound fluent. So it must depend where you are I suppose.

If I were in your situation Dez, I'd make an attempt to get to know a few locals so I can ask them. I have no idea how simple this will be in your neighbourhood. I'm guessing you already have friends through work, so you could explain your situation and ask how they feel about your adoption of their culture. I think you might be surprised by their answer. If you don't feel close enough to them, mayb find a few local friends other ways. In Bavaria, I made friends on a German forum first, then hung around in a bar speaking in English until a kind local guy introduced himself. Japan was a little harder. There's very much a division between the in-group and outsiders, which is hard to break through. I used a language exchange site to make friends with young wannabe Westerners, who loved having a white girl to hang with.

You could also post an advert for language exchange online too. I met Miyo through Gumtree this way and it has led to a really nice friendship. Once you have local friends, your Spanish will probably come flooding back in no time, and you'll have a better feel for whether or not you're welcome to share their culture! I'd be surprised if they don't love you for your interest.

Hah...L has said before that it's the assumption that Japanese is so extremely tough. Anyone who can speak even a little "gets treated a bit like a talking dog". Since he's working for a Japanese shipping company again, he keeps having people ask if he's married to a Japanese woman. I'm pretty sure they're thinking that's the only way he'd be fluent.

I like the idea of asking the locals...right now I'm keeping an eye out for a botanica or the like, and trying to get my Spanish back up to speed ASAP, especially since we're probably going to be living here for a bit.

I don't think most americans know (or care) enough about Wales to be actually prejudicial toward the welsh. I wouldn't be surprised if most of what we know about Wales comes from Torchwood.

Part of that is because Wales didn't have the same sort of issues that sent tons of Irish and Scots to America. It's much rarer to run into Americans with Welsh ancestry, like my husband. Only three Welsh festivals in all of America: D.C., one back east where there was a lot of mining (yeesh, can't remember where), and one in Malad, Idaho (a lot of Mormons have Welsh blood--Idaho in particular because it's good sheep country).

This map might interest you:

http://www.zimbio.com/The+Welsh+Assembly/articles/338/Dazzling+Washington+C+Smithsonian+Welsh+Cultural

I still forget and say gyped now and then...my grandmother said it all the time, and no one ever told me it was wrong growing up. I try not to, though