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    #1

    "God given right"

    I have a Christian friend who is seriously NOT handling the loss of the Republican candidate. I mean he's on a tail spin of pity fiesta. He made a comment on fb and I let it go because, hey, it's fb. But I figured here is a good place to discuss it.

    He stated:
    "We have a God given right to freedom of religion"

    My reply:
    "No. That's the Constitution"

    Do we really have the right to freedom of religion?
    And more importantly as most of you are deity believers but not of the Abrahamic group:
    Does your deity give you any rights? Are the Abrahamic religions the only religion that have 'god given rights'?
    Satan is my spirit animal
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    #2
    Re: "God given right"

    I believe in rights, though I don't believe they're god given. I'm pretty sure, though, there are rights we all can agree are inalienable.
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    "...leave me curled up in my ball,
    surrounded by plush, downy things,
    ill prepared, but willing,
    to descend."

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      #3
      Re: "God given right"

      Rights are man given. If they were God given then the more religious countries would have better civil rights records than the more secular ones. This is not the case.
      Also rights wouldn't change so much over time if they were decided by some God.

      My Goddess is all about people learning, she's not going to dictate rights, she wants the human race to figure out how best to treat itself. She can be cold and hard like the winter and soft and warm like the spring. Does she tell the Wolf how to treat its pack? No she gives it a brain and some instincts and lets him get on with it.

      For the record I do believe in evolution but I think it is like a computer programme written by the divine. If you understand the programme and know what you are putting into it you should have a pretty good idea what you'll get out.

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        #4
        Re: "God given right"

        The biggest problem with rights is that the people who usually have the most, rarely want to share with those who have the least.
        www.thewolfenhowlepress.com


        Phantom Turnips never die.... they just get stewed occasionally....

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          #5
          Re: "God given right"

          Well, yeah, I think the idea of "unalienable rights" sort of falls into the same category as "inherent meaning." Where God comes into it varies with how a person defines "God."

          Inasmuch as others cannot entirely control the content of one's thoughts, I suppose there is some "right" to believe what you will.
          Inasmuch as those beliefs become a religious practice that can be apprehended by others, it is not so much a right as having the permission of your society.

          "No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical." -- Niels Bohr

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            #6
            Re: "God given right"

            "God given right" would imply that a sentient God exists. This is a fallacy. Our right to freedom of religion is dictated solely by our leaders throughout history. In Canada and America, and most of the western world at its present state, we have a freedom of religion, a freedom to think and believe as we wish, so long as it acts in accordance with the governing law. In past civilizations and past eras, we did not have that freedom.

            The Roman's were the freest thinking civilization that I can name, insomuch that they allowed for the worship of multiple pantheons as they continued to conquer the rest of northern Africa, Byzantine, and Christendom (what we now know as Europe). But they still had very strict laws enforcing the worship of the Roman pantheon, sacrifices, and keeping with the pax deorum above all things. Worship to other gods came secondary in the eyes of the law. 14th century Christendom, on the other hand. You worshiped God, or you were excommunicated and declared anathema. Then you were usually stoned to death.

            But I agree with Caelia in that some rights should be inalienable. Equal rights for men and women, suffrage, etc.


            Mostly art.

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              #7
              Re: "God given right"

              Powers provide free will, we've got the right and responsibility to use said free will. Some Powers may intend other rights but they left humanity free will and that includes the ability to **** ourselves over.

              Regarding the guy you were talking to. The Declaration of Independence does discuss "inalienable rights endowed by the creator", as that line doesn't carry the force of law with it, those rights or at least specific elements of them are protected by the Constitution. The Constitution does all the visible heavy lifting on that front but one could try to make the case that the framers of the Constitution to be an inalienable right and the purpose of the First Amendment was not to grant the citizenry a right but rather to protect a right from any future tampering by government.
              life itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.

              Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

              "But those men who know anything at all about the Light also know that there is a fierceness to its power, like the bare sword of the law, or the white burning of the sun." Suddenly his voice sounded to Will very strong, and very Welsh. "At the very heart, that is. Other things, like humanity, and mercy, and charity, that most good men hold more precious than all else, they do not come first for the Light. Oh, sometimes they are there; often, indeed. But in the very long run the concern of you people is with the absolute good, ahead of all else..."

              John Rowlands, The Grey King by Susan Cooper

              "You come from the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve", said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth; be content."

              Aslan, Prince Caspian by CS Lewis


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                #8
                Re: "God given right"

                I actually take issue with the whole idea of unalienable rights, which is the secular way of describing "God given rights." Unalienable means they cannot be given away or taken away, and I honestly cannot think of a "right" I enjoy as a human that cannot be taken away. It is very pretty to believe that as a human I am possessed of inherent worth and dignity, but neither my life experiences nor human history support that belief. Rights are a social construct. A very good one, imo, but a construct nevertheless.

                "No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical." -- Niels Bohr

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                  #9
                  Re: "God given right"

                  Originally posted by nbdy View Post
                  I actually take issue with the whole idea of unalienable rights, which is the secular way of describing "God given rights." Unalienable means they cannot be given away or taken away, and I honestly cannot think of a "right" I enjoy as a human that cannot be taken away. It is very pretty to believe that as a human I am possessed of inherent worth and dignity, but neither my life experiences nor human history support that belief. Rights are a social construct. A very good one, imo, but a construct nevertheless.
                  Depends on the philosopher. The rights are believed they can't be taken away without consent of the person. It's the basis for social contract theory.
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                  "...leave me curled up in my ball,
                  surrounded by plush, downy things,
                  ill prepared, but willing,
                  to descend."

                  Comment

                    #10
                    Re: "God given right"

                    I find the religious right's definition of "freedom of religion" to be odd. In my country of birth (and sort of my other country too, though separation of church and state blows in Germany), freedom of religion means that the public sector and everything it runs is religion free, and religion is for your own personal time. That means that the state will not interfere with your ability to believe whatever the hell you want, but your religion also doesn't get to interfere with the state. As I understand, this is also the case in the US.

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                      #11
                      Re: "God given right"

                      Originally posted by nbdy View Post
                      I actually take issue with the whole idea of unalienable rights, which is the secular way of describing "God given rights." Unalienable means they cannot be given away or taken away, and I honestly cannot think of a "right" I enjoy as a human that cannot be taken away. It is very pretty to believe that as a human I am possessed of inherent worth and dignity, but neither my life experiences nor human history support that belief. Rights are a social construct. A very good one, imo, but a construct nevertheless.
                      Coming from Jefferson, the author of The Declaration of Independence, the "creator" is more likely being used in a rhetorical sense, rather than a literal sense, to mean a rock bottom, fundamental, absolute, "as if from God," can't exist without it, right.

                      Your problem (IMHO) in accepting the idea is that you are confusing a legal promise from the government to the people regarding what the government can and can not do (by law) with a personal sense of something which arises within yourself (that sense of self worth). The government can't give that to anyone - and so, in that sense, the rights are a social construct.
                      Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

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                        #12
                        Re: "God given right"

                        The only 'right' that really comes into play on my path is the right to fight for your own survival, whatever that may entail. If you have to take jobs that you feel are beneath you, if you have to sacrifice sleep and money in order to achieve an end that will allow you to get out of a dark patch in your life, that's all on your own shoulders and no one should be able to take that 'potential' from you.

                        As far as freedom of speech, religion, yadda yadda go... Some old religions survived the Christianity push, it's hard to weed out of some people. But those 'rights' when it comes to law are a pretty new phenomenon.

                        That being said, I'm also a bit of a dinosaur in my thought process... Just my 2 cents. ^^

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                          #13
                          Re: "God given right"

                          Originally posted by Caelia View Post
                          Depends on the philosopher. The rights are believed they can't be taken away without consent of the person. It's the basis for social contract theory.
                          Which is the foundation of the U.S. political system. I appreciate your use of the word "believed;" however, I think that, like most systems, it only works when enough people, or perhaps even just the right people, "believe" it should be the case. I am very comfortable with the assertion that such rights should not be taken away, but the assertion that they cannot be taken away is falsified by any fool with a handgun.

                          - - - Updated - - -

                          Originally posted by B. de Corbin View Post
                          Coming from Jefferson, the author of The Declaration of Independence, the "creator" is more likely being used in a rhetorical sense, rather than a literal sense, to mean a rock bottom, fundamental, absolute, "as if from God," can't exist without it, right.

                          Your problem (IMHO) in accepting the idea is that you are confusing a legal promise from the government to the people regarding what the government can and can not do (by law) with a personal sense of something which arises within yourself (that sense of self worth). The government can't give that to anyone - and so, in that sense, the rights are a social construct.
                          The Declaration of Independence is not a legal promise from any government, it lays out the philosophical rationale for separating from Britain, and unalienable rights is bedrock. It asserts that by not respecting these rights -- which inhere in the individual by nature of existence in human form -- Britain violated its obligation to its American colonies.

                          - - - Updated - - -

                          Originally posted by DanieMarie View Post
                          I find the religious right's definition of "freedom of religion" to be odd. In my country of birth (and sort of my other country too, though separation of church and state blows in Germany), freedom of religion means that the public sector and everything it runs is religion free, and religion is for your own personal time. That means that the state will not interfere with your ability to believe whatever the hell you want, but your religion also doesn't get to interfere with the state. As I understand, this is also the case in the US.
                          Supposedly that is the case, but reality is more complicated. Separation of church and state continues to be a debate in the U.S.

                          "No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical." -- Niels Bohr

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                            #14
                            Re: "God given right"

                            Originally posted by volcaniclastic View Post
                            would imply that a sentient God exists. This is a fallacy.
                            Good luck proving that.

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                              #15
                              Re: "God given right"

                              I love this. Unalienable, God-given, protected rights are not inherent. They're given, for sure, but not by any God or gods. What it boils down to is that there's no such thing as rights until a group (society, culture, etc) creates the ideal and presents it as such.

                              In the US, life, liberty and the purfuit (lol) of happiness are considered base. They aren't. They were set forth by a small elite group of willfully blind men as nothing less than a dream of what the New World should be about. The truth is that all three of those things are patently impossible to maintain, let alone be born with.




                              "Reason is not automatic. Those who deny it cannot be conquered by it." - Ayn Rand

                              "Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth." - Marcus Aurelius

                              "The very ink with which history is written is merely fluid prejudice." - Mark Twain

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