"God given right"

[B. de Corbin]

Re: "God given right"

There's big division between people who claim that each human has rights, simply by virtue of being human, and those who claim that nobody has a right, unless he/she can actually get it.

I'm in the latter camp - what you can't get, you don't have.

[Dumuzi]

Re: "God given right"

"Rights are not given, they are taken"

[Moody Thursday]

Re: "God given right"

There's big division between people who claim that each human has rights, simply by virtue of being human, and those who claim that nobody has a right, unless he/she can actually get it.

I'm in the latter camp - what you can't get, you don't have.

I'm not sure I understand your point of view. Let's use having children, for example. That's a pretty understandable/simple human right.
If a family lives in a country that restricts having babies, they have no human right to a child? Just because they can't "get" this right?
Like I said, I don't think I understood your statement.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: "God given right"

I'm not sure I understand your point of view. Let's use having children, for example. That's a pretty understandable/simple human right.
If a family lives in a country that restricts having babies, they have no human right to a child? Just because they can't "get" this right?
Like I said, I don't think I understood your statement.

You heard me right.

What you don't have, you don't have.

Believing that you do, when you don't, is engaging in fantasy, IMHO.

[Maria de Luna]

Re: "God given right"

What is every single human being born with that it has everywhere regardless of where theywere born, or who they happened to be born as? I honestly cannot think of anything that I would consider a right, the only thing at all I can even begin to think of is innocence, (regardless of who or "what" you turn into you start innocent.) Even if said innocence lasts for just a moment or two before selfishness kicks in and an infant becomes hungry. They start as properly innocent. But if that is a god given right, whatever god gives it doesn't let us keep it long, once it's gone, it's gone. There are even some people that would believe that the infant is not innocent and is guilty of some family sins, whch I suppose would mean that they dont have innocence... But I think I am referring to the kind of innocence that is within a person and not societal, well it doesn't matter because it is not really a right... So I supposed I have argued myself into personally believeing that there is no inherrent or "bestowed by god" rights. Again, my opinion, so that's all it is...

[Moody Thursday]

Re: "God given right"

You heard me right.

What you don't have, you don't have.

Believing that you do, when you don't, is engaging in fantasy, IMHO.

I see. Thanks for clarifying that. I'll have to politely agree to disagree. I get where you're coming from, though. If someone took away a right from you, then you don't have it. Makes sense.

However, I think that if you aren't given a right (or it is taken from you, I should say), you still deserve it/have it. It's a matter of standing up to whoever is keeping that right from you. Whether it's domestic abuse or a corrupt leader or something else. Your rights might have been wrongfully suspended by someone else, but I believe that doesn't make it so that you don't deserve them. I think human rights are generally agreed upon and self-evident.

And I think "rights" (or human rights) are not the same as "laws". I think human rights are a lot more simple. They are basic things that promote healthy growth (not always physically). Like I said, self-evident and not too complex. Do I have the right to eat an apple I purchased? Sure. Do I have the right to kill people with an apple I purchased? Eh, not so much. Not too much thought or opining is involved, just a basic sense of morality and common sense will do. There's no reason to philosophize on whether or not domestic abuse is wrong, we can basically use the simplest form of thought to say, "Yes it is wrong".

[thalassa]

Re: "God given right"

There's big division between people who claim that each human has rights, simply by virtue of being human, and those who claim that nobody has a right, unless he/she can actually get it.

I'm in the latter camp - what you can't get, you don't have.

Or maybe humans have certain rights by virtue of being human because a goodly number of reasonable and enlightened humans have decided that we should all be able to have those rights and are willing to fight for them for themselves and protect them for those that are unable to do likewise.

[Moody Thursday]

Re: "God given right"

Or maybe humans have certain rights by virtue of being human because a goodly number of reasonable and enlightened humans have decided that we should all be able to have those rights and are willing to fight for them for themselves and protect them for those that are unable to do likewise.

I agree with this, a lot, although I believe anyone with basic morals and a hint of common sense can come to the conclusion that these are rights that everyone deserves :-)

[Maria de Luna]

Re: "God given right"

I agree with this, a lot, although I believe anyone with basic morals and a hint of common sense can come to the conclusion that these are rights that everyone deserves :-)

While there are plenty of things I believe people deserve, not everyone has these things. If a right is "god given" why can they so easily be human taken? I think thats what I mean, something that is guaranteed by god seems so easily manipulated by man... so in my mind I feel like there are not specifically "god given" rights... plenty of "man given" ones, but not "god given."

[anunitu]

Re: "God given right"

Rights are a funny thing,people sometimes define rights as "THEIR" thing,and have and most likely will deny these "rights" to others. One need only consider "Gay rights",many here in then U.S. would deny some rights from gay people,defining these rights allowed only because of just who you are. In the past many people have been denied even basic rights because we classed them as "Different" and considered this "Difference" as enough of a reason to deny rights. It is simple to say everyone has these "Rights" it is another to make sure EVERYONE actually does have these rights no matter what. Society puts each of us into a "Class" and then tries to determine if we deserve all these rights. Are we in the proper class,and do we follow all the rules for our class. If you are going to talk the talk,then it follows that you have to "Walk the walk" to be really truthful about "Rights".

[Moody Thursday]

Re: "God given right"

While there are plenty of things I believe people deserve, not everyone has these things. If a right is "god given" why can they so easily be human taken? I think thats what I mean, something that is guaranteed by god seems so easily manipulated by man... so in my mind I feel like there are not specifically "god given" rights... plenty of "man given" ones, but not "god given."

That's why I completely avoid the whole "god-given" thing. I don't think rights are bestowed upon us from above. When I speak of rights, I mean "human" as in down-to-earth, right-here-right-now, no religion necessary. As in, just being born makes you have a set of inherent rights. So maybe this is about the end of my input on this thread, because no, I don't think they are "god-given". (Didn't mean for it to sound rude. I mean that's the topic, and I'd be off topic now). :-)

- - - Updated - - -

Rights are a funny thing,people sometimes define rights as "THEIR" thing,and have and most likely will deny these "rights" to others. One need only consider "Gay rights",many here in then U.S. would deny some rights from gay people,defining these rights allowed only because of just who you are. In the past many people have been denied even basic rights because we classed them as "Different" and considered this "Difference" as enough of a reason to deny rights. It is simple to say everyone has these "Rights" it is another to make sure EVERYONE actually does have these rights no matter what. Society puts each of us into a "Class" and then tries to determine if we deserve all these rights. Are we in the proper class,and do we follow all the rules for our class. If you are going to talk the talk,then it follows that you have to "Walk the walk" to be really truthful about "Rights".

Absolutely. There's a lot of countries that don't even acknowledge that people have certain rights. For example, boys might have the right to go to school, but girls don't (in certain places). That's when it gets tricky. When people throw away common sense and morality to fuel their own agenda.

PS: And hey, I hope everyone has a nice Thanksgiving tomorrow! ^_^

[AzazelEblis]

Re: "God given right"

That's why I completely avoid the whole "god-given" thing. I don't think rights are bestowed upon us from above. When I speak of rights, I mean "human" as in down-to-earth, right-here-right-now, no religion necessary. As in, just being born makes you have a set of inherent rights. So maybe this is about the end of my input on this thread, because no, I don't think they are "god-given". (Didn't mean for it to sound rude. I mean that's the topic, and I'd be off topic now). :-)

Like those rights are intrinsic to what it is to be human, regardless of supernatural this that or the other? Yeah, I have to say that sounds about right.

Absolutely. There's a lot of countries that don't even acknowledge that people have certain rights. For example, boys might have the right to go to school, but girls don't (in certain places). That's when it gets tricky. When people throw away common sense and morality to fuel their own agenda.

PS: And hey, I hope everyone has a nice Thanksgiving tomorrow! ^_^

When we start talking about different cultures' mores and taboos, with respect to such cultures' particular Social Contract, things do get rather sticky. I'd rather broaden the rights (and thus, obligations) we all get within our Social Contract.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: "God given right"

I agree with this, a lot, although I believe anyone with basic morals and a hint of common sense can come to the conclusion that these are rights that everyone deserves :-)

Deserves? Yes, I agree. But there are those that don't, and they frequently show up with armies at their backs.

Deserving and having are two different things. And as Thalassa pointed out, the people who get us, and allow us to keep, the rights we do enjoy are often not even the ones who get to enjoy them.

The difference between believing in (literally) inherent, inborn rights and believing that rights have to obtained is the difference between being active and being passive. People who believe rights have to be obtained make it part of their self imposed obligation to take an active part in making sure those rights are given, and not taken away. People who believe that rights are inborn look around at all the people lacking in real, physical rights, and say "They deserve better. Somebody ought to do something."

[Caelia]

Re: "God given right"

Deserves? Yes, I agree. But there are those that don't, and they frequently show up with armies at their backs.


The difference between believing in (literally) inherent, inborn rights and believing that rights have to obtained is the difference between being active and being passive. People who believe rights have to be obtained make it part of their self imposed obligation to take an active part in making sure those rights are given, and not taken away. People who believe that rights are inborn look around at all the people lacking in real, physical rights, and say "They deserve better. Somebody ought to do something."

Actually I actively fight to keep my rights and I believe in inalienable rights.

[thalassa]

Re: "God given right"

Let's start here: inalienable=unable to take away/surrender/give up, unassailable

What is a right that cannot and hasn't been taken away at some point in human history?

That is the ever elusive inalienable right. There are lots of rights that SHOULD be inalienable, but pragmatically speaking, in practice, at least off the top of my head, I don't know of any that haven't been taken away by someone, in some culture, at some point in history.