What should the 2nd amendment mean in a modern society?

[Kahlenda]

Re: What should the 2nd amendment mean in a modern society?

Exactly, its all about training, the guns themselves are not dangerous, well no actually they are but they arnt the killers its the people using them, if you put training in place and drill it into people it will be unconciously followed

[Denarius]

Re: What should the 2nd amendment mean in a modern society?

Exactly, its all about training, the guns themselves are not dangerous, well no actually they are but they arnt the killers its the people using them.

One word: Accidents. Tens of thousands happen every year resulting in hundreds of fatalities. Imagine that, you buy a gun to protect your family and then one day you accidentally shoot your child or spouse. You were careful, meticulous even, but all it took was one slip up.

All the training in the world wont stop this, it's just a matter of probability and human limitations. They always think that it wont happen to them, that they are different or special. This isn't some action movie, and you are not being played by Clint Eastwood.

Dozens of armed people in a crisis situation would be a powder keg, one any sane person would like to avoid. You have people waving guns around and firing, someone wasn't paying attention and shoots someone who was just defending themselves. Or A sudden movement causes them to reflexively shoot, then the sound of that gun causes other people to shoot. That's called contagious fire which WILL make mountains out of molehills, and training actually makes it worse.

Then of course you have misfires, and as I mentioned earlier those inevitable accidents which will have rised exponentially.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: What should the 2nd amendment mean in a modern society?

One word: Accidents. Tens of thousands happen every year resulting in hundreds of fatalities. Imagine that, you buy a gun to protect your family and then one day you accidentally shoot your child or spouse. You were careful, meticulous even, but all it took was one slip up.

Question?

If you were careful and meticulous, how did the accident happen?


Don't try to clean a loaded gun, practice muzzle discipline, don't leave loaded guns lying around, and there will not be an accident.

Guns are not magical beings. They do not do evil of their own accord. Accidents ARE NOT inevitable. The proof of this, if proof is needed, is all the millions and millions of gun owners and users who have never hurt anybody, either intentionally or otherwise. It's hard to argue with such astronomical figures.

[Hawkfeathers]

Re: What should the 2nd amendment mean in a modern society?

Question?

If you were careful and meticulous, how did the accident happen?


Don't try to clean a loaded gun, practice muzzle discipline, don't leave loaded guns lying around, and there will not be an accident.

Guns are not magical beings. They do not do evil of their own accord. Accidents ARE NOT inevitable. The proof of this, if proof is needed, is all the millions and millions of gun owners and users who have never hurt anybody, either intentionally or otherwise. It's hard to argue with such astronomical figures.

Yes, there are many gun owners, some with CC permits who are always armed, etc., who never hurt anyone. There are cars that last 10 years or more without a scratch, too. There are children who never break a bone or tear their shirt. There are condoms that don't break. But - that doesn't mean accidents are 100% preventable.

People have memory issues, illnesses, temporary medication issues, etc., that can make they more prone to such. You simply never know.

I'm not anti-gun. I'm quite pro, in fact, but I'm against the Total Quality Mgmt. kind of ideas that are thinly veiled victim-blaming. Something can ALWAYS go wrong with a machine or a living being.

[Denarius]

Re: What should the 2nd amendment mean in a modern society?

Question?

If you were careful and meticulous, how did the accident happen?


Don't try to clean a loaded gun, practice muzzle discipline, don't leave loaded guns lying around, and there will not be an accident.

There are two types of unintentional discharge: Accidental and negligent. Negligent is when you were not doing at least one of what you mentioned, accidental is when it happens regardless. As you say, guns are not magical beings. They are not free from defect and unburdened by natural laws. As I said, all it takes is one slip up. No one is perfect, and no gun is perfect.

Any number of things could be at play. Maybe you get a bit ill, maybe you are exposed to something that affects your judgement, maybe you're just tired, maybe just for a moment you have a brain fart. It doesn't matter, the point is not that it will happen to everyone but that it can happen to anyone.

[MaskedOne]

Re: What should the 2nd amendment mean in a modern society?

If you're tired, a civilian and handling a weapon then you are either negligent to start with or there are some rather pressing concerns that justify having a weapon in hand. If you are willfully (as opposed to oh ****, someone is breaking my door down) handling a weapon in conditions where your ability to maintain basic safety regulations is in question then you are (depending on situation) negligent as all hell, to put this simply if you are holding a weapon and the barrel is pointing at a human being that you don't intend to kill then either the mag has been ejected and the chamber cleared or you are negligent. To be more precise, if you don't have the mag ejected and the slide locked back so that you can see that the chamber is clear then I really don't want to be around you because you're gonna get me killed. Guns don't generally fire backwards and/or sideways. There are things that can go wrong regardless (misfires can have odd side effects) but it's really not hard to control the variables that lead to an accidental shooting.

EDIT:

I'm aware not all guns are semi-auto pistols. I'm too lazy to modify the above to account for revolvers, shotguns and rifles.

[Hawkfeathers]

Re: What should the 2nd amendment mean in a modern society?

There's also the "other people" factor - the most dangerous of all. I have seen some mighty presumptuous acts perpetrated by guests in other people's homes/cars/whatever.

[Denarius]

Re: What should the 2nd amendment mean in a modern society?

The scary thing about having your judgement impaired is that you quite often don't know that your judgement is impaired. It's all well and good to say that following basic gun safety is easy, when you are not in the heat of them moment or in some way impaired.

S-t happens, end of story. Human error is always a risk, even with precautions.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: What should the 2nd amendment mean in a modern society?

I'm against the Total Quality Mgmt. kind of ideas that are thinly veiled victim-blaming. Something can ALWAYS go wrong with a machine or a living being.

Believe it or not, guns are extremely simple machines... until you get into automatics, which are already illegal. What can go wrong with a simple machine is predictable - the barrel can get clogged which could cause it to burst, if loaded with overloaded ammunition the barrel might burst or rupture the breach, brass might get caught while ejecting (which stops the gun from firing), and with semi-auto's (particularly the SKS), a dirty firing pin might cause it to suddenly go full auto.

But the gun, being a mechanical object, does not in general do what it is not asked to do. Bullets fly in predictable paths, they go forward from the muzzle, and end up in the general direction in which the barrel was pointed, allowing for bounce...

Oddly enough, I do not feel that calling a machine a machine and pointing out that they are far less dangerous than people like to imagine they are is "blaming the victim." Like working with electricity or gas, know what you are doing and act carefully.

Sure, people can make mistakes. But the gun usually doesn't. The gun just does what someone else tells it to.

[Shahaku]

Re: What should the 2nd amendment mean in a modern society?

Ya know what else is a shame about this speech, there are one or two fairly sound points absolutely swallowed up amidst the crazy rantings... I think having a cop in each school, (not security guard, not volunteer, but a trained and qualified specifically for this type of environment Cop.) would be a decent idea. Not perfect, not ideal, but better than most else thats being proposed...

I grew up in a small, small town. Population less that 5k, I think it might have been less the 3k, and in my high school at least, we had a full time truancy officer who was part of the police force, who carried a gun. When he wasn't tracking down kids who had skipped school or otherwise run off, or dealing with their parents for letting them, he took up residence in an office all his own on school property. I agree with the above.

I also agree that certain licensing measures should be met to own a gun. I believe that a person should be required to prove themselves both willing and able to handle a gun properly. I believe that background checks should be required for gun owners and that specialized courses should be required for anyone wanting to own a gun of any kind. In other words, a general gun safety course, followed by courses for specific types/purposes of guns. Hunter safety, concealed weapon, etc.

That being said, I do not think that gun owners should have to register each gun they own, only that they should have to provide a license to carry if it is requested. This is because having your guns listed means that the government can decide to ban guns and if your gun is registered, they know just who to go to and how many of what type of gun you should own. There would be no way of hiding your firepower in the case of a corrupt government, which is one of the major purposes of the second amendment. Just because it seems farfetched that our government would be so corrupt that we needed to overthrow them, that does not mean it could not happen and that we should not protect our right to protect our rights in such a situation.

And finally, a story. My grandfather is big on gun rights. He keeps a loaded hand gun in the drawer next to his bed for self defense. He is not afraid to use it and would not regret shooting a stranger who broke into his house. I was taught at a very young age not to touch the gun, not to even open the drawer, though I knew the gun was in there, and not to even go in my grandparents room without permission. Though he did tell me to shoot an intruder if I had to and showed me how to point and shoot.. I think I was five? Probably would have missed, but at least I understood the basics. And guess what? With ample opportunity, I never touched that gun, let alone killed anyone with it. I was taught, growing up, that no meant no, though.

Children can be taught to leave guns alone, and the seriousness of it, the problem is with parents who refuse to do so, or don't think it's important. I started shooting when I was ten, I've done some hunting, and I will probably own a gun or two when I can afford it, even though I don't hunt much now. I also own a recurve bow that has stood me in good stead since my youth. All in all, I think that the second amendment should be upheld, every American citizen in possession of their full rights, has a right to bear arms, that's not up for debate.

[ChainLightning]

Re: What should the 2nd amendment mean in a modern society?

I wonder... if more people die annually from falls, in their bathrooms, than from firearm usage, will the powers that be try banning bathrooms?

[Denarius]

Re: What should the 2nd amendment mean in a modern society?

I know that toilets are more deadly than sharks.

[ChainLightning]

Re: What should the 2nd amendment mean in a modern society?

I know that toilets are more deadly than sharks.

So are hippos. Pretty sure lightning beats out sharks, as well.


New Ban List:

Sharks, toilets, hippos, lightning, dogs, cliffs and water.