'Gay' marriage signals 'centuries of persecution'?

[SPhoenix]

Re: 'Gay' marriage signals 'centuries of persecution'?

Indeed centuries of persecution because people just misunderstood them about the torture and murder of so many because they did not follow the Church's demands.

Most of the claims of their "centuries of persecution" are from forged documents. The whole "throwing christians the lions" business is a forgery, along with most of the stories of the "saints'" deaths.

That's just on top of the absurdity caused by the idea of gay marriage being "persecution" at all.

I once would have said that churches shouldn't be required to perform them, but I've reconsidered due to the fact that marriage is a government institution. If they want to get out of the government institution, then they should. If not, then they should follow the laws of that government institution.

[darkhalf]

Re: 'Gay' marriage signals 'centuries of persecution'?

The world neither hates or loves you, but people can hate or love you. This excuse to allow the denial of a right, is just pathetic. So people are going to be mean to them, that's what they deserve for the horrible things they have done to people. Coming for a gay guy, this just pisses me off, I hear this kinda stuff all the time. On the radio, the t.v, even my schools news channel. Why do we as a society let hate thrive?

[Malflick]

Re: 'Gay' marriage signals 'centuries of persecution'?

I hate seeing my faith used to justify intolerance. Its just... Sad. Its this kind of BS that has made me not attend church for a few months since the priest there gives homophobic diatribes.

Sadly it will take a long time for deeply entrenched institutions to change their ways. Alas. But at least the general populace is swinging in the direction of real morality, and you know, giving people the rights they deserve.

[darksyderainmaker]

Re: 'Gay' marriage signals 'centuries of persecution'?

I've always found the argument that gay marriage is religious persecution hilarious. You're being persecuted against by not being allowed to persecute? Keep crying as I use my tiny, tiny violin to play the soundtrack to your increasing irrelevance to modern society.

Bahaha. That is all. In complete agreement.

[ChainLightning]

Re: 'Gay' marriage signals 'centuries of persecution'?

There's always some group of people that are targeted as "the enemy" by some mythological moral crusade. I think back on the anti-commie, anti-hippie, anti-black, anti-irish, anti-catholic, anti-chinese... shit. The list is endless. Something that every one of those groups faced was basically a fascist movement to control every aspect of people's lives to ensure a total absence of those groups in any acceptable or mainstream public.

The upshot: The mainstream public, though it has always taken some time, has plowed right over that [neo-]McCarthyism, time and time again. The squeaky wheel gets the most attention... and then it gets replaced.

[iflewoverthecuckoosnest]

Re: 'Gay' marriage signals 'centuries of persecution'?

I think it's about a certain section of society trying to maintain their power and privilege in the face of a rapidly shifting culture with different values and demographics as much as it is about the actual issue of two men getting married.

There is a lot of truth to that. When cultures are going through times of change, it scares some people. That fear causes them to cling as hard as they can to the old ways they were comfortable with.

[Aeran]

Re: 'Gay' marriage signals 'centuries of persecution'?

I think it's about a certain section of society trying to maintain their power and privilege in the face of a rapidly shifting culture with different values and demographics as much as it is about the actual issue of two men getting married.

[iflewoverthecuckoosnest]

Re: 'Gay' marriage signals 'centuries of persecution'?

I think it was Surviving the World who once wrote "In 2080, my grandchildren will be asking: grampa, why was there a debate about gay marriage?"

Exactly. Could someone please remind me why this is even an issue?! Two consenting adults want to legally commit to one another. So where's the problem? Why should some random third party have any say in the personal lives of people they've never even met? The whole thing is an enormous, ridiculous waste of time.

[Kviskrar]

Re: 'Gay' marriage signals 'centuries of persecution'?

Oh dear, oh dear. This is by far the most ridiculous thing I've seen on the subject. And I live in France, where the president is planning on legalizing it, so I've heard it all;
"It's against nature" - So are your clothes, your car, your ipod and so forth, dear.
"It will destroy the sanctity of marriage" - When 50% or more of the marriages are not done in church and 45% of all marriages end in divorce, I don't really see what you're talking about, dear.
"Homosexuals are glubluhe hueglu bubu" and so on and so forth, ad nauseam.

I think it was Surviving the World who once wrote "In 2080, my grandchildren will be asking: grampa, why was there a debate about gay marriage?"

[iflewoverthecuckoosnest]

Re: 'Gay' marriage signals 'centuries of persecution'?

Oh, sweet Jesus :no:
That is such transparent b.s. First of all, no one is talking about forcing churches to marry gay couples if they don't want to. However, if that did become an issue, I would be one of the first to stand up for a church's right to hold to its homophobic bigotry and refuse involvement in the nuptial affairs of homosexuals. Second of all, I can't think of a couple that would want to get married in a church where they weren't even welcome. It's just a bunch of whiney strawman bull.
It is frustrating when the persecutor plays the victim.

[anunitu]

Re: 'Gay' marriage signals 'centuries of persecution'?

The thing is marriage really in this day and age is more a civil contract than a religious one. You can get married by the justice of the peace,and if you wish in a church that doesn't have a problem with same sex marriage.

Really the only objection seems to be from the religious sector,and they seem to think it would bring down fire and brimstone.

[Clive]

Re: 'Gay' marriage signals 'centuries of persecution'?

I agree.

But the problem with this argument is that these groups are using it as a distraction. Churches already have the right not to marry people. There are still "Christian" churches that don't perform interracial marriages, there are churches that refuse to marry people who've had premarital relations, there are churches that refuse to marry people of different faiths. Clergy refusing to marry people that are gay in a church that doesn't allow it are protected by the First Amendment. Even in the military (where chaplains are expected to serve people of all beliefs), now that they have repealed DADT, chaplains that are of a religion that doesn't condone gay marriage are exempt from performing the ceremony...they just have to refer the person in question to chaplains of the faiths that are not opposed to it (like the UCC, Episcopalians, UUs, etc)

Absolutely true. I just figure the ones who may or may not be using the argument as a distraction may only be worried that their right to perform or not perform a ceremony may be revoked. Granted, such a threat is probably decades off from becoming a reality, but I can see it being a legitimate worry.

But in the end, yes, it's little more than a distraction. I just think it's important to have compassion for all who are involved, to avoid having a riotous mindset over the issue.

[thalassa]

Re: 'Gay' marriage signals 'centuries of persecution'?

The one argument in this whole clusterfeck that I can understand is the idea of churches who condemn homosexuality being forced to conduct same-sex ceremonies. Sometimes that sort of thing does happen when political correctness goes too far, and personally I would consider it religious persecution to be legally forced to do something your church sees as sinful. I wouldn't expect a same-sex couple to belong to or want to be married in a church that condemns homosexuality, but I see people all the time who have bees in their bonnets over clergy persons who do not wish to marry gay couples, as if they expect clergy to do so even if they don't want to.

I agree.

But the problem with this argument is that these groups are using it as a distraction. Churches already have the right not to marry people. There are still "Christian" churches that don't perform interracial marriages, there are churches that refuse to marry people who've had premarital relations, there are churches that refuse to marry people of different faiths. Clergy refusing to marry people that are gay in a church that doesn't allow it are protected by the First Amendment. Even in the military (where chaplains are expected to serve people of all beliefs), now that they have repealed DADT, chaplains that are of a religion that doesn't condone gay marriage are exempt from performing the ceremony...they just have to refer the person in question to chaplains of the faiths that are not opposed to it (like the UCC, Episcopalians, UUs, etc)

[Clive]

Re: 'Gay' marriage signals 'centuries of persecution'?

The one argument in this whole clusterfeck that I can understand is the idea of churches who condemn homosexuality being forced to conduct same-sex ceremonies. Sometimes that sort of thing does happen when political correctness goes too far, and personally I would consider it religious persecution to be legally forced to do something your church sees as sinful. I wouldn't expect a same-sex couple to belong to or want to be married in a church that condemns homosexuality, but I see people all the time who have bees in their bonnets over clergy persons who do not wish to marry gay couples, as if they expect clergy to do so even if they don't want to.

[Maria de Luna]

Re: 'Gay' marriage signals 'centuries of persecution'?

Darnit, I had to go in and spread my 2 cents around too... people are dumb, and dont bother knowing about their own religions before posting... this is annoying, yeesh. also, enjoying thal's comments... We need some slightly more intelligent arguers here, this is too sad.

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Thalassa, I fear I may have been slightly angrier than you... and posted a weee bit too often...