How do I tell the Difference?

[Denarius]

Re: How do I tell the Difference?

Like the blog said, after the victim begins to feel pleasure than the act of rape isn't rape anymore, so... it isn't a bad thing because, like the blogger wrote, it is consensual because of the act of pleasure for both parties, no matter how perverse or twisted. I mention that because it nullifies the argument that rape isn't bad because essentially rape never happened in that circumstance. It started as a bad thing then ended up being the best sex ever. It nullifies the argument that rape isn't bad because no rape happened so that logic doesn't fit that rape is good. Rape is bad because it is not consensual. It the case for the blog it was, maybe not initially, but it was consensual.

Nah, bro that's still rape as far as I and the law are concerned. "Surprise sex" is still rape, regardless of if the rapee enjoys it. The fact of the matter is that no consent was given, and there's still the matter of the perpetrator not knowing if the rapee would like it or not. See, this is where intent comes into it.

Rape, as I have been told, is about power and taking pleasure. Not giving it. The perpetrator is still a rapist, one who most likely doesn't care if their rape is enjoyed. So, they're a bad person and should be locked up. Which is my opinion, that I hold very strongly.

Mental aberration just means they are wired differently not that they are not thinking rationally, ADHD is a mental aberration. Either way the point I was making was not that they are acting rationally, but that their morality is different than yours or mine. Not less valid, just different. Potentially different in such a manner that rape is not a bad thing to them. Basically I posit that their morality is as real to them as yours is to you, and both are equally non-objective. Therefore equally valid opinions.

Now, I would like to wash my hands of this whole thing. Researching this has probably put me on some sort of watch list already.

[PsykhikosAnarchosNautikos]

Re: How do I tell the Difference?

Either way the point I was making was not that they are acting rationally, but that their morality is different than yours or mine. Not less valid, just different. Potentially different in such a manner that rape is not a bad thing to them. Basically I posit that their morality is as real to them as yours is to you, and both are equally non-objective. Therefore equally valid opinions.

I see your point. I didn't quite get that interpretation.

[egregor]

Re: How do I tell the Difference?

Isn't it consensual rape if the "victim" enjoys it?

[PsykhikosAnarchosNautikos]

Re: How do I tell the Difference?

It is still rape by legal definition. Like Denarius said, the rapist is after their own pleasure no matter the mental and physical damage to their victim. If the victim ends up enjoying themselves then it may become consensual but rape in and of it self never starts out consensual. Rape is rape no matter what. The back and forth was only about the morality behind the action.

[Nerá]

Re: How do I tell the Difference?

"'Surprise sex' is still rape, regardless of if the rapee enjoys it."

Really? To me, it just sounds like something I would get for my birthday!

[Malflick]

Re: How do I tell the Difference?

...Its still rape and the victim feeling pleasure doesn't make it consensual at all. Or okay. Its still a horrible demeaning experience no one should ever have to live through. Your body giving you signals you don't want to feel doesn't make someone forcing themselves on you okay. At all.

[Nerá]

Re: How do I tell the Difference?

Btw.. I meant the "surprise sex" part...not the rape part. Not trying to be controversial or offensive.

[ChainLightning]

Re: How do I tell the Difference?

Meh. I'm still struggling with the correlation of "white magic" being good and "dark magic" being bad. Is this new?



As for the twists and turns of the rest of the thread, and the discussion over morality, ethics, good and evil, and rapists being true to their nature... I can only shudder. Too much fantasy, here, for not playing an rpg.











Yeah. Pointless post. I know.

[PsykhikosAnarchosNautikos]

Re: How do I tell the Difference?

Surprise sex is awesome if it is from someone I want sex from, but that is consensual after all.

Meh. I'm still struggling with the correlation of "white magic" being good and "dark magic" being bad. Is this new?

I notice a lot of people are confused about this because we all have our different answers. I think the difference between white magic being good and black magic being bad is just controversy. The Golden Dawn says black magic is bad because it is ego gratification and black magicians get into taboo practices such as necromancy, from merely speaking with the dead to doing blood magic and creating zombies (vodou), and working with demons and other netherworld creatures and energies. I read recently that 'black magic' stems from magic done in ancient Egypt and Persia, where Egypt used to be known as Khem which means black. I am unsure of the historical value, but it does make sense, but now the terms black and white are synonymous with evil and good (which I, and many others, disagree with).

As for more modern approaches there are often levels of magic- low and high. Lower 'white magic' is working with herbs, healing others, charms, amulets, devotions, etc. High magic is communion with the divine and doing what is called the Great Work, which is finding the Philosopher's Stone (immortality) in ceremonial magic, which is understanding and being one with all of knowledge and creation- or union with 'God'.

Lower black magic is ego gratifying, such as love magic, money magic, cursing, etc. Higher black magic is also seeking to be one with your chosen patron and immortality- but immortality as an autonomous being not under the power of a higher force. I think Michael Kelly said it in Apophis that white magic (right hand path philosophy in general) is obliterating the self within the universal consciousness (all of creation), whereas greater black magic (the left hand path philosophy in general) is being your own conscious force where creation is your playground (isolate intelligence).

Like I said in an earlier post white magic, to me, is defined by subservience to a higher power and that all magic stems through an outside power either from the God and Goddess or other higher force and it is only used for good (like in Wicca for example), whereas black magic is internal. The power and magic stems from within the individual and the gods served are gods chosen and it is not unity that is sought but autonomy from bondage from this world and any other. Atheist magicians can be considered users of black magic, but it is not bad at all. Their morality is gray.

When it really comes down to it, magic is magic like action is action. I can do magic to explode your mind and make you sick or subservient or I can do magic to heal you and give you radiant happiness. With action I can use that ability to walk to the store or beat your face in with a mallet. It's all intent.

[Denarius]

Re: How do I tell the Difference?

I usually separate magic into internal magic which is borne of one's essence and external magic which taken form outward sources. I consider the notion of white and black or high and low magic to be as absurd as the notion of sharks and jets magic or boxers and briefs magic.

I have never seen or felt any reason to even begin to entertain the notion of magic having any sort of morality in and of itself.

[Lilium of the Valley]

Re: How do I tell the Difference?

...Its still rape and the victim feeling pleasure doesn't make it consensual at all. Or okay. Its still a horrible demeaning experience no one should ever have to live through. Your body giving you signals you don't want to feel doesn't make someone forcing themselves on you okay. At all.

i completely agree!

[PsykhikosAnarchosNautikos]

Re: How do I tell the Difference?

I usually separate magic into internal magic which is borne of one's essence and external magic which taken form outward sources. I consider the notion of white and black or high and low magic to be as absurd as the notion of sharks and jets magic or boxers and briefs magic.

I have never seen or felt any reason to even begin to entertain the notion of magic having any sort of morality in and of itself.

I agree that magic is just magic but I like to differentiate things because, like my father says, I like to complicate things. I admit I do enjoy the complication (sometimes it is a real pain) but I can find the simplicity, or my own understanding and application, once I have gone through all (or a lot) of the reasons why things are the way they are and why and how we can utilize them and for what purposes.

[Lilium of the Valley]

Re: How do I tell the Difference?

"'Surprise sex' is still rape, regardless of if the rapee enjoys it."

Really? To me, it just sounds like something I would get for my birthday!

'Surprise Sex' > awesome!!!!! IF it is coming from someone you know and want it from!!

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since this thread has taken lots of turns, i dont think one more will hurt
so what do you all think of doing magic for your own gain...getting more money, a new job, a better job, luck, fertility, health, beauty, i mean the list of things goes on and on and on...
i know this may cause a debate....but an interesting one. it seems so this is one of the points that people have very very different opinions over!

- - - Updated - - -

Lilium, till you've got a couple more posts to your name, our system will occasionally try and snack on your posts. If you've posted something and can't find it then ask one of the staff to check for it. We can free the post in question from our slightly overzealous filtering system. I've freed a few of your posts and removed several that looked like copies of the ones set free.

Welcome to PF!

thanks for the info!! one of my replies to this post just got "snacked on"...who exactly is the staff???

[Tylluan Penry]

Re: How do I tell the Difference?

'Erotic curses' can be found right back into Ancient Greece (and probably beyond that.) The idea was to inflame the victim (male or female) so that she/he would run to the house of the person casting the spell and have sex with him/her. It was always regarded as being rather underhand and often very severely punished.

[PsykhikosAnarchosNautikos]

Re: How do I tell the Difference?

since this thread has taken lots of turns, i dont think one more will hurt
so what do you all think of doing magic for your own gain...getting more money, a new job, a better job, luck, fertility, health, beauty, i mean the list of things goes on and on and on...
i know this may cause a debate....but an interesting one. it seems so this is one of the points that people have very very different opinions over!

I think those types of magic are fine depending on your morality and position in life. All the things you mention remind me of business practice and neuro-linguistic programming (one of my favorite subjects which involves a lot of hypnotic techniques, what some magicians/witches may consider part of the 'black arts' because it can be seductive).

Sometimes you just need to get things done. You need to sell yourself. If you have ever gone to a job interview or a date you most likely dressed for the part and presented yourself at your best to get the desired effect- a paycheck or romance. Eye contact, confident (or flirtatious) speech and posture, tonal inflection (a slight change in voice for desired effect), etc. I think the old world witches called this fascination and glamor. You do the same thing when going to a wedding, funeral or fancy party- you dress up and present yourself at a higher level than you would on a normal day or a party with a bunch friends and associates. You play different parts to get different results. Of course, this could also be representing different aspects of the self, but for the sake of this post, we'll stick to the conscious decision to act a part to get something done, which is seduction and suggestion. I consider these practices (hypnosis and suggestion) results driven magic, which I consider lower black magic (like I said, I like to label things). You don't need candles to 'cast a spell'.