Ultimate Church

[PsykhikosAnarchosNautikos]

Re: Ultimate Church

I always thought it was funny that religions don't believe in magic, or shunt it as an act of evil, when King Solomon was a Mage, Noah was a Mage, Jesus was a Mage, the Saints hold 'supernatural' powers (what the hermeticists call 'Theurgy' or direct magical connection to 'God'), etc. Prayer acts as invocation, church ritual acts as evocation- the list of the parallels between magic and religions, all religion, are endless, but I digress.

I understand your point that a unified groups of mystics and priests and priestesses would be a good force in the world. It would be nice to see a Tibetan Buddhist Monk and Christian Priest sit together and discuss their techniques and initiations into their priesthood so they could come up with a synthesized version from two ancient traditions. Or a Catholic Nun and Wiccan Priestess to swap ideas of Divine Love. The Nun could help the Wiccan understand the power and beauty of solitude and abstinence, where the Wiccan could the Nun realize that sex isn't bad and relate the act to the beauty of nature. They could share their ways of prayer, ritual and connection. Or a Luciferian and a Rabi could discuss protocols of mysticism and how to work with angelic spirits. The Left-Hand Path follower could teach the Right-Hand Path follower the power, beauty and benefit of Ego and Self-Deification and the Right-Hand Path follower could teach the Left-Hand Path follower the beauty and benefit of allegiance to a higher power and faith for the sake of faith. Of course, the examples are endless. I still don't think this is possible on a massive scale, but I have been wrong before.

[Hawkfeathers]

Re: Ultimate Church

I always thought it was funny that religions don't believe in magic, or shunt it as an act of evil, when King Solomon was a Mage, Noah was a Mage, Jesus was a Mage, the Saints hold 'supernatural' powers (what the hermeticists call 'Theurgy' or direct magical connection to 'God'), etc. Prayer acts as invocation, church ritual acts as evocation- the list of the parallels between magic and religions, all religion, are endless, but I digress.

I used to wonder about that as a child in a Roman Catholic family - we were told "sorcery", etc., is bad, but then the priest turned bread & wine into the body & blood of Christ on Sunday.

[PsykhikosAnarchosNautikos]

Re: Ultimate Church

I used to wonder about that as a child in a Roman Catholic family - we were told "sorcery", etc., is bad, but then the priest turned bread & wine into the body & blood of Christ on Sunday.

Yeah, I always thought that was funny. I didn't grow up in a Catholic or Christian family, but when I was forced to attend church because of other family ties and saw this, I was like, "Soooo.... you're vampires? Cool!" Then I realized they hate vampires, too. Then later I was like (similar to the magic realization), "But, technically Jesus is a vampire. He died. Came back to life. And exploded in the Sun..." even though they call it "rising to heaven." And doesn't it seem kind of rude to celebrate God on his day off? Assuming Genesis is true (which I don't believe), he worked his ass off to create this beautiful place and asks for one- just one- day off... and you drink wine and eat wafers representing his sons flesh and blood?!? This either proves God is a vampire or the Bible was definitely written by men.

(To keep this on topic...) Vampires and Christians sure could learn a thing or two about each others similarities in lore and ritual. Seriously. The Vampire Community/Spiritual practices, among other black magic sects (not 'evil'), really do have a few things in common- God as Man and flesh and blood as metaphor for immortality and power.

[Alienist]

Re: Ultimate Church

Yeah, I always thought that was funny. I didn't grow up in a Catholic or Christian family, but when I was forced to attend church because of other family ties and saw this, I was like, "Soooo.... you're vampires? Cool!" Then I realized they hate vampires, too. Then later I was like (similar to the magic realization), "But, technically Jesus is a vampire. He died. Came back to life. And exploded in the Sun..." even though they call it "rising to heaven." And doesn't it seem kind of rude to celebrate God on his day off? Assuming Genesis is true (which I don't believe), he worked his ass off to create this beautiful place and asks for one- just one- day off... and you drink wine and eat wafers representing his sons flesh and blood?!? This either proves God is a vampire or the Bible was definitely written by men.

(To keep this on topic...) Vampires and Christians sure could learn a thing or two about each others similarities in lore and ritual. Seriously. The Vampire Community/Spiritual practices, among other black magic sects (not 'evil'), really do have a few things in common- God as Man and flesh and blood as metaphor for immortality and power.

It's an interesting discussion but I don't think Jesus would be a vampire. I was under the assumption vampires were harmful creatures and there's different kinds of vampires depending on which legend you're reffering to. I think the bible was written by us and some things were exaggerated even though there are a lot of things in there that are true. Jesus is techically a mage since he has shown the power to heal but also curse, too. I believe Christianity practices magic but they don't call their magic "magic" they call them "miracles" but it's still the same thing anyway though. I mean if I turned water into wine, walked on water, cursed fig trees and healed others, I'd be called a wizard or something. I believe when older texts say "Don't practice magic" they really mean "Don't practice magic that's from any other religion as they are rivals and therefore a threat to the magic we practice" It's very ironic back then that lots of religions, most of them that were overall peaceful and followed the peaceful path would attack each other just because they did things in a different way. Perhaps the 2 orginizations could learn something from one another although I don't have a frame of reference since I'm not entirely sure what the Vampire community practices but nonetheless they could learn something

It would be interesting to see mystics, priests,priestesses nuns, monks, and rabbis and also others work together to heal the sick, educate and protect one another from harmful magic or entities like poltergeists the undead, evil cultists, ect. I agree that it might not happen on a large scale but then nothing ever really does in the begining. It pretty much always starts small but eventually can become world wide. There really is so much good that could come from this and seeing them use their magic, spells prayers, incantations, potions to help the innocent. This is why I think they should unite for they might learn something from each other as you said with the monk and priest and nun and wiccan. There are still who would worship dark deities today that would harm one another and one would stand a better chance if religions of peace would work together swapped ideas and combined their magic.

[PsykhikosAnarchosNautikos]

Re: Ultimate Church

It's an interesting discussion but I don't think Jesus would be a vampire. I was under the assumption vampires were harmful creatures and there's different kinds of vampires depending on which legend you're reffering to. I think the bible was written by us and some things were exaggerated even though there are a lot of things in there that are true. Jesus is techically a mage since he has shown the power to heal but also curse, too. I believe Christianity practices magic but they don't call their magic "magic" they call them "miracles" but it's still the same thing anyway though. I mean if I turned water into wine, walked on water, cursed fig trees and healed others, I'd be called a wizard or something. I believe when older texts say "Don't practice magic" they really mean "Don't practice magic that's from any other religion as they are rivals and therefore a threat to the magic we practice" It's very ironic back then that lots of religions, most of them that were overall peaceful and followed the peaceful path would attack each other just because they did things in a different way. Perhaps the 2 orginizations could learn something from one another although I don't have a frame of reference since I'm not entirely sure what the Vampire community practices but nonetheless they could learn something

I don't really think Jesus was a vampire, but definitely a mage. His followers are another story. They are the ones in power in the government, the wafer and wine example, holy clothing being black- need I say more?

The Vampire community is an interesting subject, but their are tons of other organizations and Orders that I have looked into. Only one coven actually partakes of blood that I know of, but I forgot who they were because they seemed a bit wacky. The order that is interesting is Order of the Vampyre of the Temple of Set, the first vampiric order, predating the Temple of the Vampire, who in turn, I believe, influenced the Vampire community (Dayside, Nightside and Twilight are terms taken from the Temple of the Vampire who took it from the Order of the Vampyre). Basically, the practices in the community include 1) Psychic Vampires who feed off of the vital energy of donors and 2) Sanguine Vampires who actually drink blood of donors. The ones who practice magic that are popular are House Kheperu and Strigoi Vii who give homage to a self-created force called Elorath. The Strigoi Vii 'feed' from donors and offer it to what they call the 'Strigoi Morte' (basically vampire gods and guides) in exchange for refined energy so they can 'defeat the second death'. Blood is only a metaphor for the power of life, much like it is in Christianity/Catholicism.

It would be interesting to see mystics, priests,priestesses nuns, monks, and rabbis and also others work together to heal the sick, educate and protect one another from harmful magic or entities like poltergeists the undead, evil cultists, ect. I agree that it might not happen on a large scale but then nothing ever really does in the begining. It pretty much always starts small but eventually can become world wide. There really is so much good that could come from this and seeing them use their magic, spells prayers, incantations, potions to help the innocent. This is why I think they should unite for they might learn something from each other as you said with the monk and priest and nun and wiccan. There are still who would worship dark deities today that would harm one another and one would stand a better chance if religions of peace would work together swapped ideas and combined their magic.

That is one of the reasons I am part of this forum and another because it is a collection of people form varied back rounds with varied skills. We are not all here to become a Mighty Magus or Priest/ess of God/dess like proportions, but at least we can freely exchange practices and ideas. I would love be part of a group of mystics and magicians of varied cultures and creeds. This is why chaos magic is such a big part of my practice and belief system as well. The chaos magician learns from many disciplines (after they are grounded in one) and studies and practices to see what is useful and discards the rest. It isn't quite the same as mystics from other religious and spiritual paths coming together, but it is a way to see the strength and beauty of the different paths, at least through an individuals perceptions. I think it's good for the soul, honestly, because you are always learning and when one system becomes too stifling, you simply move on. "Belief is a tool. Sharpen it like a razors edge," is one of my favorite quotes from the co-founder of chaos magic.

[Corvus]

Re: Ultimate Church

I speak of Satanism and I'm not talking about the Church of Satan, I am reffering to those who are the real hardcore ones the ones that actually perform dark rituals and thhose who worship Kali in Hinduism. You probably might know of the Thuggee Cult, the one similar described in Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom. They aren't exactly the same but the Thugee are real. Just any who would worship dark gods, even in Egypt like Set too.

I'm offended by this on several levels. First being that you cite gods that, as PsykhikosAnarchosNautikos said, are not really evil. Kali for example is a warrior manifestation of the goddess Durga used to annihilate evil. An example being her defeat of the demon Raktavija by drinking his blood. Set is also not evil per se. He kills the serpent and protects Re each night as he journeys through the underworld. He's done some bad things but he's not evil really. You equate darkness with evil which is completely wrong. There are many "dark" and benevolent deities such as Osiris, Selene, Hecate and even Nyx. There are uncivilized and destructive forces in nature but that does not make them evil.

Furthermore many "demons" in Satanism have a pretty bad rap despite being decently nice guys. In general Satanism is the embracing of your individuality and refusal to subjugate yourself to a deity or to following the crowd. There will be groups of people that mutate deities and warp what they really are, there always will be (hell look at the westboro baptists and what they did to christianity) but that doesn't invalidate any legitimate worship they have.

[Alienist]

Re: Ultimate Church

I'm offended by this on several levels. First being that you cite gods that, as PsykhikosAnarchosNautikos said, are not really evil. Kali for example is a warrior manifestation of the goddess Durga used to annihilate evil. An example being her defeat of the demon Raktavija by drinking his blood. Set is also not evil per se. He kills the serpent and protects Re each night as he journeys through the underworld. He's done some bad things but he's not evil really. You equate darkness with evil which is completely wrong. There are many "dark" and benevolent deities such as Osiris, Selene, Hecate and even Nyx. There are uncivilized and destructive forces in nature but that does not make them evil.

Furthermore many "demons" in Satanism have a pretty bad rap despite being decently nice guys. In general Satanism is the embracing of your individuality and refusal to subjugate yourself to a deity or to following the crowd. There will be groups of people that mutate deities and warp what they really are, there always will be (hell look at the westboro baptists and what they did to christianity) but that doesn't invalidate any legitimate worship they have.

Alright, it would have been wiser if you had read my previous posts... I am referring to any religion dedicated to bad and disorder and there ARE religions like that. What you're talking about is the Church of Satan Satanists. I'm talking of the actual hardcore ones that do sacrifices and believe me they exist. What about the Moloch worshippers that are rumored to exist even today? Are they not evil and are known to sacrifice children? Those who practice warlock harmful magic wouldn't be the nicest folk and I know they exist and have existed. I was under the impression Set was evil since he dismembered Orsiris and fought against Horus. You say he's done bad things but not evil? Wouldn't that be a pretty evil and disturbing thing? The real question is which is correct? Is Set actually evil, or was he given as you say "a bad rap" Who knows really...

We could argue all day of which god is evil and which isn't. This has happened to multiple religions obviously where one religion calls the other evil whether they are in reality or not. For crying out loud, some Christians think Wiccans are devil worshippers and nothing could be further from the truth. Some religions think this religion is bad, others think it's good, and so on. But let's not get off topic here anyway. We shouldn't discuss which exact religion is evil and which isn't. I reccomended a coalition with religious mystics, wizards, witches priestessess and so forth to unite. They have a common cause obviously. They just do things differently. It still amounts to the same thing. Some think it might not work, but even though Christianity, Judaism Hinduism and Buddhism and among others have different traditions, that also gives them a distinct advantage seeing how they can learn from each other, know different techniques and combine them

[PsykhikosAnarchosNautikos]

Re: Ultimate Church

I was under the impression Set was evil since he dismembered Orsiris and fought against Horus. You say he's done bad things but not evil? Wouldn't that be a pretty evil and disturbing thing? The real question is which is correct? Is Set actually evil, or was he given as you say "a bad rap" Who knows really...

I am not answering for Corvus, but according to the Left-Hand Path philosophy, especially those of the Temple of Set, the dismembering of Osiris is a symbol of severing ties with oppression. Osiris is seen as a Right-Hand Path God and the idea behind that philosophy is to unite with your God/dess and be a loyal servant. The Left-Hand Path doesn't say don't obliterate your self into your deity if that is what you want, but they would rather retain their self-consciousness and personal power, whether they give adoration to a deity or not.

Osiris, to them, is seen much like Yahweh- a slave holder (followers that serve their God out of fear or love), where Set (Satan, Lucifer, Prometheus, etc) represents 'isolate intelligence' or ones own conscious immortality even after the body decays. So, in essence Set (nor the other deities I mentioned) is not evil. I understand where you are coming from, though, that those that harm others for the sheer pleasure of it would not be tolerated in a congregation of spiritual unity and peace. But you also need to understand that sometimes those that curse or work with violent deities and spirits do so out of protection of self and others. Every religion has their exorcists, and the Priests of the Christian/Catholic religions, and the followers in general, are considered 'Christian Soldiers,' denoting an air of pride and death- is this not harmful?

I see the 'dark' paths as more honest, admitting that they are prideful and sometimes need to get things done no matter the price, even if it harms others, where the 'white light' paths don't admit they harm others or do things for pride, although that is exactly what they are doing.

[Corvus]

Re: Ultimate Church

In the interest of not derailing this thread further can we either drop the discussion about the status of evil/dark/ect deities or else make a thread for it specifically.

[PsykhikosAnarchosNautikos]

Re: Ultimate Church

I did not mean to derail the thread, I just think it is important to understand that 'dark' and 'light' paths have more to learn from each other in an 'Ultimate Church' than just a bunch of the 'light' paths that we all already know so much about and the majority practice (this does include Wicca and other branches of Paganism since they are getting so popular). A church or community that only teaches and works with the more common and accepted religious beliefs and practices isn't going to do much in the furthering of the spiritual and phenomenal world, whereas understanding why the darker and more hardcore paths do what they do and why is a very positive step to further the spiritual evolution of humanity. This does not mean adding the practice of sacrificing innocents for the thrill of it or to feed a hungry demon, but to understand why the 'darker' paths choose to be dominant by the use of cursing, blaspheming and more sinister practices. I think the discussion is actually very relevant to the topic, but maybe not to the level I have gone thus far with differences between the types of deities.