New and Concerned

[Wednesday]

Re: New and Concerned

I think if you read back than you'll see I'm suggesting the exact opposite of that. But we don't need to discuss it further if you don't want.

[monsno_leedra]

Re: New and Concerned

I think if you read back than you'll see I'm suggesting the exact opposite of that. But we don't need to discuss it further if you don't want.

And I'm telling you, as a recon, that the idea of Germanic heathenry as *just* a warrior culture is incorrect

I think its hilatious that you're telling me what is important to my community

The worldview is living in harmonious balance with the dynamic world through honorable reciprocal relationships with gods, ancestors and spirits. Period. From the scholars. From the recons.

And then here people are telling him he needs to embrace that warrior mentality to be heathen. I

While I love a good discussion or debate on things I've been in to many that start using these type phrases and become the "My Recon methods are the only right ones". I try to avoid speaking in specifics unless it is something I can point to with creditable academic support / research and relatively universal acceptance of an idea, concept or position. I have not told you that heathenism is ________ or that you have to do such and such to be a Heathen. I've said these are the things I have been told or things I've witnessed indicating why my position is such in-regards to it.

Even the absolutes you reference are not universal absolutes except to your practice and perhaps those you associate with or endorse your perspective. The heathen boards are full of word wars about which is a universal perspective or the true face of Heathenism and not all of them endorse what your identifying as an absolute here.

The closest point I came to making what might even be construed as specific inflexible point was in this posting.

I think for me it depends upon whether one is making it a recon aspect or a neo-aspect of it. As a recon it was an important part and present in nearly all the eddas and saga's. As a neo-aspect then it's a different perspective I agree. Where it gets touchy to me it seems a lot of Heathens lean towards a recon perspective not a neo perspective. As such the warrior / battle concept is important to their mindset and world view of things.

Yet it also clearly states.."For me" indicating it is my perspective and reasons for that perspective not that it applies to all heathens or is even assumed to pertain to all heathens.

Even the premise of this thread opened with the OP speaking upon the warrior mindset and mentality which was why it was addressed.

That warrior and combat oriented attitude from many Heathens just doesn't sit right with me.

It may not sit well with him but it is an aspect that is strongly accepted and expoused in many heathen practices I've been exposed to. Its base and usage is a legitimate response in recognizing and / or understanding I think in the context of this thread. Even as to why it might be a discriminator used against him or his position.

But as I stated i've seen that dog and pony show to many times on recon boards / groups and its not worth the effort and energy trying to discuss it. For no one is totally correct and no one is totally incorrect as it's all based upon personal opinion and perspective. Even ones experts most often are contradicted by other experts on the material or how to read / understand it.

It's like which is more correct. The Volsunga Saga or The Nibelungenlied? Ones Icelandic while the other is Middle High German yet both deal with pretty much the same story from different perspectives. Both dating from the 13th century by most accounts so about the same time frame of writing.

[Wednesday]

Re: New and Concerned

I think it's a bit disingenuous of you to discount my opinion because the recon mindset is "one way", and then when I state that I am recon you won't discuss it with me further. That you claim I'm making it all about "my way" is insulting since I've spent the entire discussion pushing the fact that heathens and their customs are as varied and unique as people are themselves.

There are basic cultural similarities which distinguish Germanic from Hellenic from Mayan; that isn't me pushing my way. My only goal is to inform the OP that heathenry is about forming his *own* customs and preferences [edit: that express that basic cultural understanding] and NOT about conforming to a community warrior ideal. And the best way to defend his own customs is to be educated in them, because that's an unfortunate requirement in the community.

[volcaniclastic]

Re: New and Concerned

Disagreements are fine. But if this particular discussion is going to continue, please take it off the boards and into a Private Message. You've both already stated it's not worth discussing, and yet, here we are.

Thank you.

[monsno_leedra]

Re: New and Concerned

I think it's a bit disingenuous of you to discount my opinion because the recon mindset is "one way", and then when I state that I am recon you won't discuss it with me further. That you claim I'm making it all about "my way" is insulting since I've spent the entire discussion pushing the fact that heathens and their customs are as varied and unique as people are themselves.

There are basic cultural similarities which distinguish Germanic from Hellenic from Mayan; that isn't me pushing my way. My only goal is to inform the OP that heathenry is about forming his *own* customs and preferences [edit: that express that basic cultural understanding] and NOT about conforming to a community warrior ideal. And the best way to defend his own customs is to be educated in them, because that's an unfortunate requirement in the community.

I'm not discounting your opinion its just to me once you start speaking in absolutes as to what is or is not something based upon ones perspective of things it no longer becomes a discussion. At best it becomes an issue of he said, she said and little is discussed or resolved beyond that aspect. You've already inferred the all recons do this or that, believe this way and established semi absolute boundaries of what is or is not. That leaves no room for discussion for anything that is said if your coming from the perspective that there is only one correct way or implying such a position.

Discussing the Berserker to warrior aspect is open to discussion / debate as there were no specifics. Yes we could suggest that they held this or that perspective / position within society. Even in regards to the archaic vs feudal vs current definition of what a warrior is and what makes one such is open to potential discussion.

Even stating that "I was told or heard that heathens believe this or that" is open to discussion as it is not an absolute. So using the warrior motif found in many heathen type groups can be discussed until you make an absolute statement about heathens only believe this based upon ones individual perspective. What an Asatru practitioners believes in regards to warrior and placement is highly different than say what an Odinist believes and assumes yet both fall beneath the heathen umbrella.

For instance I think its the 12 laws that are often cited. Sorry can't think of the actual term at the moment. But nearly every heathen practitioner I have spoken to reads them a bit differently and what they mean in practicing heathenism. So the law seems to be absolute in presence yet the way they are understood is variable and open to discussion.

I think where we probably separate though is where you state your goal is to inform the OP that heathenry is about forming his own customs and preferences with the basic cultural understanding. The warrior ideal is a basic cultural component. Though I do agree the definition of what a warrior is is subject to debate against the various peoples that made up the respective culture norms and to some extent which gods / goddesses they called upon ie Vanir or Aesir. For instance considering the Berserkers were heavily tied to Odin and his berserker rage it's sort of hard to not include that as an aspect of warrior and Aesir.

- - - Updated - - -

Disagreements are fine. But if this particular discussion is going to continue, please take it off the boards and into a Private Message. You've both already stated it's not worth discussing, and yet, here we are.

Thank you.

Sorry was typing my reply when you posted this so didn't see it till just now.

[Louisvillian]

Re: New and Concerned

Exactly. Its just stereotypical, one dimensional, ethnocentric bullshit that the Germanic people were barbarian warriors.

Granted, it was an image exacerbated by Germanic nations in the 19th century when this whole revival and Romanticism began. It's not accurate, but there is a reason it came about and was popularised. It's still somewhat a part of Germanic polytheistic revivals that root to that time period.

[Wednesday]

Re: New and Concerned

Ooph. The Noble Savage of Germanic Nationalism. That's a whole other can of worms.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm not discounting your opinion its just to me once you start speaking in absolutes as to what is or is not something based upon ones perspective of things it no longer becomes a discussion.

I didn't mean to speak in absolutes, that was out of line, especially considering that I was trying to say that warrior mentality is not an absolute truth in heathenry. I apologize, and I have no problem agreeing with you that there aren't any absolutes in heathenry and that one can either adhere to the warrior mentality or not. One could even focus more on a fertity cult like those who honored Freyr in Sweden!

[monsno_leedra]

Re: New and Concerned

..I didn't mean to speak in absolutes, that was out of line, especially considering that I was trying to say that warrior mentality is not an absolute truth in heathenry. I apologize, and I have no problem agreeing with you that there aren't any absolutes in heathenry and that one can either adhere to the warrior mentality or not. One could even focus more on a fertity cult like those who honored Freyr in Sweden!

Can't think of the name of it but I know there was a modern version of a Vanir focused cult that was very much tied to the fertility / fecundity of land and beast I ran across some time back. That would probably be more to the OP's liking I think as it was associated with Asatru but not Asatru nor heavily focused upon the warrior aspect. I vaguely recall it had more of a nordic name and not well recognized in the US. Sorry though in that I do not recall what it was only that it was Vanir oriented and located outside of the US for the most part.

With regard to the rest no harm no foul and look forward to many more discussions.

[Wednesday]

Re: New and Concerned

Are you thinking of Vanatru or Waincraft maybe?

Never had any hard feelings. It's all par for the course.

[monsno_leedra]

Re: New and Concerned

Are you thinking of Vanatru or Waincraft maybe?

Never had any hard feelings. It's all par for the course.

Vanatru sounds right but its been awhile so I'm not completely sure.