Pagan Organization

[Maria de Luna]

Re: Pagan Organization

Perhaps you should do a little reading up on it. It was a council of witches to include Wicca considering that Wiccan's are witches but not all witches are Wiccan. Thus it had Kitchen witches, Green and Hedge Witches, various Wiccan and eclectic practice representatives, etc. So no it's not a mute point. About the biggest mute point I see is that Paganism is not a religion but an umbrella term for many non-Abrahamic practices and faiths.

Again, I have 0 desire to organise witches, it is counter-intuitive to my purpose, and I don't see it as being effective. I do not define Pagan as witch, or wiccan or whatnot, and I would not limit it to witch...

As to the second part of my statement that is a common situation, especially from the happy happy joyful joyful all is white light Charmed breed variety of pagans and new age practitioners. Which by the way many New Agers also do not consider themselves any more pagan than many heathens consider themselves pagan. As a descriptor Pagan is falling away as a global descriptor even to the point of movements in Europe pushing to have it used to identify Med based or influenced practices only.

To be fair, I don't want to call people "other" that's just rude... So as a word Pagan works. If a person does not want to be in a Pagan label, I am not going to tell them they have to be, and if they want representation they would be welcomed, regardless of what label they use. Frankly religious equality should be the fight, proper equality, and acceptance as more than just a phase that grumpy tweenagers go through.

[monsno_leedra]

Re: Pagan Organization

Again, I have 0 desire to organise witches, it is counter-intuitive to my purpose, and I don't see it as being effective. I do not define Pagan as witch, or wiccan or whatnot, and I would not limit it to witch...

I don't disagree. It's just that the American Witches group was an early attempt at making a pagan based organization that attempted to gain recognition / acceptance for many paganish practices. At the time even more critical when you consider many of the spin off groups and practices of today did not exist and would not exist today had those earlier groups not tried to organize and gain acceptance.

To be fair, I don't want to call people "other" that's just rude... So as a word Pagan works. If a person does not want to be in a Pagan label, I am not going to tell them they have to be, and if they want representation they would be welcomed, regardless of what label they use. Frankly religious equality should be the fight, proper equality, and acceptance as more than just a phase that grumpy tweenagers go through.

But at the same time its just as rude and disrespectful to lump them into something they are not. I know years ago Issac Bonewitz tried to establish names that identified things as Pale-Paganism, Messo-Paganism, etc in hopes of identifying Afro-Caribbean practices and other African Disapora type practices, Aboriginal and first Nation practices, etc to identify them as the ethnicities and culture's identified them within themselves. But the common author's of the late 90's and after keep placing all of them into "Pagan" while ignoring the writers of those callings who used Heathen, African Disapora, etc to self identify.

Then the blind following the blind aspect that holds sway in paganism keeps trying to place them there as it seems they think they know better. Or worse, as they culturally steal and / or lift practices in the name of diversity and freedom of knowledge or the ever demeaning pursuit of "You can't tell me what or how to believe, practice, etc" in order to make themselves supposedly something better.

[MoonRaven]

Re: Pagan Organization

Whenever anyone talks about creating greater organisation amongst pagan I get a chill down my back. Why? Well, let me tell you a story:

Once, many centuries ago there was a man. He preached love and brotherhood, as well as a few other things and ended up getting killed for it. Now his followers believed that this man wasn't just a man, but the son of their god and that his message should be spread to all people so that they too could hear the message of love and brotherhood. Well, some believed that this message was reserved for the people only their god had already chosen but they were a minority and largely ignored by the rest.
So the followers spread out and started telling others about this man and his message, and some of those who listed believed as well and started telling others they met about this man who had lived and died, and possibly been resurrected, for his beliefs.
Time passed and the story about the man and his message was carried far and wide, and many believed it. But it wasn't the exact same story they believed, for some the man was the son of their god and thus a divine being, for others he was a man who that god had favoured in special ways but still a man, for yet others he was something third, fourth or fifth.
For a long time it didn't really matter that all these people believed so many different things, because there was no one around to tell them that they couldn't, but then something happened. Someone said: "This won't do. We cannot compete with all the other religions with lack of cohesion. People still heed the words of the priests and priestesses of Jupiter, Isis and Mithras, though it is know that we have the true word. We must unite and bring people to the light." Well, that might not be exactly what was said but it was likely the essence.
So they set up a council and invited many others who believed in the same man and his message. All they wanted was a greater organisation so they could compete with the dominant faiths and show others the value of the man and his message. As time went on they agreed on more and more things, but they were faced with a problem, what to do with those taht didn't, or didn't want to, agree? They still claimed to follow this man's message and to believe in him, but they varied so much and really they were so troublesome. The least they could do was keep it quiet. But they didn't.
In the end, all at the meetings agree that those not at those meetings, all those that did not see things such as it was obvious that the man had intended them, that is how the council agree upon that the man had meant, was to be convinced. Preferably gently and with their willingness of course, but if they refused to see that this was how their god and his messenger had meant things to be, well then they would be convinced violently.

Well, the rest as it is said, is history and probably one you already know so I won't ore you with it. But all of this, that only started with a desire for greater organisation, end up creating the start of a century long bloodbath of epic proportion. And that is why I get a chill down my spine every time someone says: "Let's get some organisation among all the pagan faiths".

[Maria de Luna]

Re: Pagan Organization

Well I suppose this thread shows why we will never have rights in the US as pagans.... Pagans must not want religious equality, this thread is sad and mystefying proof...



thank you and goodnight

[Moonshine Thistlewish]

Re: Pagan Organization

Equality does not mean organization.

[MoonRaven]

Re: Pagan Organization

Well I suppose this thread shows why we will never have rights in the US as pagans.... Pagans must not want religious equality, this thread is sad and mystefying proof...

I'm from Europe not the US so...
But as far as European pagans go we are, in my experience, by and large a fairly unorganised bunch, and yet, at least here in Scandinavia where I live, manage to have quite a few rights regardless. At least the one that matters to us. But then, religion is not a part of everyday life here in the same way it appears to be in the US.

Let me finish off with a question for those who wany greater organisation among pagans. What do you intend to do with those who do not agree with you in such a council, voice, whatever was created? What would you do with those who keep on insisting that you do not represent them and their view on paganism?

[MaskedOne]

Re: Pagan Organization

Technically US Pagans have full constitutional protection. This has been fought in court multiple times, the Pagans win. Practically, an organized body speaking for them would help guarantee that those protections are honored as often and as thoroughly as they should be.

[Archimedes]

Re: Pagan Organization

Well I suppose this thread shows why we will never have rights in the US as pagans.... Pagans must not want religious equality, this thread is sad and mystefying proof...



thank you and goodnight

It sure is telling, isn't it?

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I am not saying everybody has to be organized. If there are those who are content with their disorganization so be it as that is their choice, however there are those amongst us like myself that desire to organize ourselves which is very much our right to do so.

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There are those like myself that want our own communities along with our own vested political, social,cultural,religious, and economic interests expanded upon which we view can only come about through higher organization methods. I remain unapologetic for this.

The ridiculous posts claiming that such organization would be used to hurt, oppress, and belittle others is a outrageous one considering since I made this thread I have had nothing but a peaceful demeanor.

[wisp]

Re: Pagan Organization

I'm Canadian, so maybe my view isn't quite lining up with what you guys mean but..I read a few pagan newsletters online. I follow some twitter accounts. And they all, frequently, talk about victories for pagan rights. And some of these result from small organizations, but these are organizations that focus solely on..say, legal rights for non-standard religions. Or a directory of people who can provide various services. These are just that, services provided in a very focused sense that doesn't try to define anything, doesn't try to really organize outside of offering a helping hand.
We don't need temples, or hierarchies. And groups that do, often make their own. Because, as someone else said, we're too diverse to jam us all into one building.
I want respect for my beliefs, I do. But getting us all together to do the things religions are 'supposed' to do, won't earn that respect. It'll just make us more visible, which is fine and dandy, if that's what you want, but it's not what I want. I'm ok with not belonging to a major religion. I'm married to an agnostic and I'm cool with that, he doesn't need to find a pagan path. If, when I have kids, they decide they don't want anything to do with paganism, that's ok too. I don't -need- people to believe what I believe. It doesn't affect my discourse with my gods or the spirits. It doesn't make my rituals any less potent for me. It doesn't prevent me from coming to forums like this and meeting wonderful people to share experiences with even though I've yet to find a single person here who believes exactly what I believe. And that's the beauty of it all.
We don't need any major organization to do what we do. If we want respect, acknowledgement, then be ambassadors on an individual level. Be decent people. Answer curious questions well, and if you don't know the answer, be honest. Attend festivals and rituals and celebrations and show the world that we are as many as we are diverse. If you feel like you need a temple, find like-minded people and make yourselves a temple. If you want it to be an open, cross-belief one, then awesome. Find like-minded people and do so. But I grew up in an organized religion and, though it had some beautiful moments, it isn't something I want or need anymore.
Hell, I've avoided druidry/ism because that was too structured for me.
We can work together and do wonderful things without being an 'organized religion'. The blogs/newsletters/twitters I follow are proof of that.

I also agree about pagan as a term. It's a clumsy thing, and though it's an easy go-to in a lot of senses, it sometimes causes more confusion and assumptions than if I state my particular flavour.

[Rick]

Re: Pagan Organization

To any who attempt Pagan-ish organization at any level, I sincerely wish you good luck. Ever tried to herd ants? It's nowhere near that easy, nor rewarding. Been there, done that, at local, state and national levels. Won't go near it again.

[monsno_leedra]

Re: Pagan Organization

It sure is telling, isn't it?

I'd say not really. If one looks to archaic and early European history most religions / spiritual practices were tied to cities or regions not entire populations or globally. Even when an area had an existing pantheon of gods / goddesses such as the Olympians it was not universal nor did it contain the same gods / goddesses in every area. It seems unlikely that even Christianity would have spread as it did had it not appealed to the developing merchant / artisan classes and gave a sense of entitlement to many existing ruling classes.

I am not saying everybody has to be organized. If there are those who are content with their disorganization so be it as that is their choice, however there are those amongst us like myself that desire to organize ourselves which is very much our right to do so.

Sorry my study of history and ancient Greece / Rome shows most areas were disorganized in their spiritual practices. It was only at dedicated temples / shrines did one really find an organization that appears to support what your saying. Then many a temple / shrine / sanctuary rose then fell as social / cultural norms and expectations changed. Yet historically those same organizations were prone to corruption and clergy hierarchies that became so un-welding that they collapsed under their own weight. It also became a situation where money and status determined who held what positions and decided upon dedications, etc.

Consider that by the end of the 2nd century A.D. most of the major temples and shrines through out the Med basin had collapsed. Ephesus, one of the largest, falls so greatly that it could not recover and actually had to take from the goddess Artemis offerings to make payments for ceremonies, rituals and construction. Lagina for Hekate / Hecate equally falls and collapses in the same time frame. Many claim it due to the rise of Christianity yet archaeology wise that was the least of the influences that caused their collapse. Economic, political and geological disasters caused a lot of turmoil and collapse of established orders or the loss of public support to such establishments. For instance there was a significant earthquake that rocked Anatolia and perhaps much of the med basin around the same time frame.

Though as far as I can see no one has claimed you can not organize nor are they denying you the right to do so. They just are not willing to give you the right to speak for their beliefs, morals, ethics, or the means or manner of their practices and public representation of such.

There are those like myself that want our own communities along with our own vested political, social,cultural,religious, and economic interests expanded upon which we view can only come about through higher organization methods. I remain unapologetic for this.

No reason in my opinion to be apologetic for wanting something or speaking out about what it is you do desire. Like any community it will only contain what it will allow and support, becoming corrupt as all eventually do or collapsing beneath its own dogma and vanity (not the proper word for what I am trying to express but the best at the moment).

The main point of contention I can see is in all probability it would become sterile or stagnate in the long run. It would also probably fall into the category of a cult vice a religion in its visible identification. As such prone to public scrutiny and speculation. Potentially even creating an isolated interface towards other existing communities or social / political perspectives and applications.

In many ways I suppose isolated in similar manners to say the Mennonite, Quaker or Amish with a lopsided community. Potentially even subject to many of the same cultural / social rebellions that are witnessed by those who come of age and seek to escape its limitations or restrictions. Restrictions most often placed or created by those who try to adhere to a notion created by a minority to influence and control the majority within the system.

The ridiculous posts claiming that such organization would be used to hurt, oppress, and belittle others is a outrageous one considering since I made this thread I have had nothing but a peaceful demeanor.

No, it is not ridiculous or outrageous in that would be used to oppress, belittle or hurt opposing practices. In order to maintain the purity or strength of its position it would by design have to suggest it's reason, goals, purpose or connection to divinity has to be higher than its neighbors to keep its members. At worse it would have to become a proselytizing religion which seeks to raise itself above others to keep its followers and create a structure to maintain it. That structure becoming in essence an established dogma of rules, regulations and perhaps a governing board to enforce, interpret and guide in the development of the practice.

Religious equality is very much a disputed notion. Disputed upon the framework of what is a religion? What is a cult? What is actual equality and equal representation of its rights and values. Even perhaps to the extent of what is public approval and support and the line between privacy and public need and awareness. We all have the right and legal choice / backing to believe what we desire yet that does not mean we are granted the choice or right to dictate that one person or groups ideals are better than another's or guarentee them such.

I am reminded of the snake handlers in the Christian community. In most states, actually all that I am aware of, clearly outlawed due to potential harm and injury to its member's, They have protection and rights as a religion but society has ruled they are not entitled to protection or allowance of certain aspects of its practice. So it exists in reality and is subject to prosecution because of aspects of its practices. But it does not give them the right or capability to speak as representatives of all forms of Christianity.

I do expect that a group that identifies with specific rules, guide lines and means of validating / enforcing it's dogma, beliefs and practices will have an easier time of forming an organization and being recognized. Wicca being one such pagan practice that is recognized and given a sense of equality based upon certain core concepts and practices that are common to all variants that identify as Wiccans. Many such groups have been recognized in Europe and the US but strongly resist the association of being called "Pagan" and gain their equality through specific identification and recognition. Those who try to be a jack of all, master of none with no guidelines or established universal recognition and acceptance / adherence to them will not in my opinion be recognized nor supported.

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Just wanted to add i've been taking some pain pills tonight for my legs, hops and back due to injuries to my spine so it could be the pills doing part or most of the talking in this entry.

[MoonRaven]

Re: Pagan Organization

Archimedes if I misunderstood your original post I apologise, but the way it sounded to me was that you wanted to organise all pagans. If all you want is to make a group of people who believe as you do and make no claims of speaking on anyone's behalf than your own, an example of this could be the druids, be my guest, knock yourself out. And I wish you the best of luck with the project.
It's only when someone says: "All who classifies themselves as X mustbe part of our organisation or they aren't true X." that I break out in hives.

As for such an organisation not being intended to harm or persecute anyone, all I can say is this. The first Christians who tried to organise things didn't intend it either and nor did the first of them by all accounts. But what about those who runs your organisation in 50 years? Or 100? Organisations, if they have a purpose and long term goals are often self perpetuating, oft times long after the purpose and goals have been fulfilled. Can you speak for those who comes after you?
But as I said if you only seek to organise those who share your own beliefs, fine. But if you plan to make an organisation who speaks on behalf of all pagans be ready for a great deal of opposition, many of us are here because we do not want to be organised.

Plus as mosno_leedra said, historically speaking, most pagan faiths have been locally based and disorganised on the larger scale. What was believed and practised in one area might not be the same as was believed and practised 50 miles away.

[thalassa]

Re: Pagan Organization

To any who attempt Pagan-ish organization at any level, I sincerely wish you good luck. Ever tried to herd ants? It's nowhere near that easy, nor rewarding. Been there, done that, at local, state and national levels. Won't go near it again.

Lol, herding ants isn't all that hard, if you have some sugar water.


...maybe we need more sugar water.

I'll settle with a loosely affiliated conglomeration of tradition specific organizations just to get shit done from time to time, when we need the numbers to do so (for example, the recent addition of an Asatru symbol for veteran's headstones never would have happened if people of a myriad of paths and organizations hadn't come together so that Roberta Stewart could get the pentacle approved for her husband). The one thing that I wish we had more of though, is inter-Pagan cooperation to build on and offline resources for people that are unaffiliated with any particular path because of that disorganization. I mean, right here alone, how often do we get "Hey, I'm new to Paganism, and I believe >enter stuff here<, where do I fit in?" Even in this age of internet, not everyone is a Google-master.

[Tylluan Penry]

Re: Pagan Organization

Well, in the UK there's the Pagan Federation and the Children of Artemis. If you want to know more about the latter, go to http://www.witchcraft.org/index.htm
There is also OBOD for Druids and I know they have several other groups for Druidry too.
If you want to listen to Merlyn, who runs CHildren of Artemis go to my podcast site at : http://tylluanpenry.podbean.com/ and look for the interviews with Merlyn... I think some of them are headed Witchfest or Artemis Gathering.
None of these groups attempts to organise pagans.
It's just somewhere for pagans to go if they choose.