Discussing Sorcery

[monsno_leedra]

Re: Discussing Sorcery

While you're right that the notion of magic in the way we currently think of it (the manipulation of impersonal forces to create change) wasn't a huge part of classical mythology , it certainly existed within other ancient civilizations. I know the Irish mythological cycles contained examples of fairly archetypal magical effects: transforming the self or another into other forms, creating fire or other elemental effects to do harm, manipulating the weather, etc. I remember reading similar examples from Egyptian mythology, though I can't remember where or how reliable it is, there's also the powers wielded by various holy figures in eastern myths, and of course there's Jesus, who I consider to be one of the best examples of the magus adept (though others won't agree with me I'm sure). Of course that's mythology, so I wouldn't relate it in any serious way to actual real world practice.

I'd agree to a degree. Yet if one digs deeper you discover that it was usually a magical item that allowed for transformation such as in the Volsunga Saga its a magical wolf skin that allows the person and his son to become wolves. If not a magical item then a person who is usually guided or aided directly by the intervention of gods, I think it is Chu Chulian (sp) who is guided and raised by a goddess and gains much of his power from her. In some ways I suppose one could place the stories of Jesus or other prophet type figures into this category as they to wear a skin but it is often that of a divine connection to a god figure not entirely unlike that of the mythic hero.

Seldom did you find a modern notion or usage of magical means. No wands, chanted spells, sacred circles, etc. Heck if one said they used wind chimes I could see that as a toss back to the old archaic notion of Jynxs and their bird like songs that were used in "Magical" purposes or actions. The current notion of Hecate's Wheel probably a corrupted reference to a jynx and not what it has become but poor scholary work gone amuck.

You find a lot of reference to Selkies, Kelpies or such where the person was able to transform by wearing their clothing / skin or gaining great control over natural situations by hiding the skin and having a spouse of great beauty, power, skill, etc as long as they held the skin. In this category of things I think one could also place much of the lychanthropic tales of transformation as they were many times from a special skin or even of magical transformation which might equate to the Berserker type transformations that were by herbs and other means, some psychological. Perhaps even to the demonic face projected by warrior classes such as the Samurai in feudal Nippon (Japan) and all it implied.

Even in things like the mid-eastern fables one encounters creature's of great magical ability such as Djinn or Genies that are bound to items. Occasionally encountering more aggressive or dangerous creature' such as the Rakashka (sp) or other vampiric type beings.

I do admit that I tend to think many of the magical means mentioned are recorded in such a way simply due to the common person having no clue to their workings. As such transformations, transmutations, etc get very creative ways of describing them. Not all for sure but a great many I think probably do fall into that category along with a great deal of illusion and manipulation of what one see's or thinks they see.

As for the real world , it's a difficult subject. For years I wrote off the concept entirely because it seemed like wishful thinking, pure fantasy. But then I had a few weird experiences and decided to dig further and further into the matter, and the more I did so, the more I found my original skepticism challenged. These days, while I'm wary about any metaphysical or philosophical speculation about how or why it works, I'm at the stage where I no longer doubt that such things do work in some fashion. I know, for example, that if I perform the Middle Pillar ritual, I'll undergo the physical and mental experience of the energy of the 'divine fire' flowing through my body. I warm up, sweat, I feel surges of pressure and tingling, and if I keep it going too long, my limbs start shaking. Afterwards, I feel energized, refreshed, calm. Does this mean some kind of divine energy or metaphysical force is literally flowing through my body? No idea, I'm not sure if that could even be proved, but it certainly provokes the intended effect. Likewise, I've dabbled with Qi Gong, and occasionally with various forms of practical spell work or other experiments, and they've all more or less produced reliable results which have satisfied me that there's something behind these effects beyond delusion, selective bias or some kind of placebo effect.

That's like the eastern notion of Rising of Kundalini which I agree with. Unfortunately, or fortunately I suppose, I find the western notion of it to be far from the eastern and the training and practice it takes to arrive at that point. Sort of the same difference between western karmic ideas and eastern karmic ideas and how it works. I suppose the Monks of parts of the Tibetan range who make a trek into the high mountains and survive with almost nothing by raising their own core temperature falls into the physical world manifestations.

I tend to fall back upon Shakespeare's play HAMLET where we says ..There are more things beneath heaven and earth Horatio than are dreamt of by your philosophies. .. It's always reminded me to keep an open mind but not so open as to allow my brains to run out my ears.

There are also various accounts of individuals who've performed certain feats which I've investigated to the best of my ability and, while I can't say with 100% surety that they did indeed do what it is claimed that they did, since I wasn't there, I can say that there doesn't seem to be any evidence of or motivation for fraud, trickery or self delusion in these cases, and that if the subject matter were any other and if I started researching it from a neutral standpoint, I'd reach the same conclusion. The problem is that it's such a loaded topic, intellectually and emotionally, most of us were taught from a young age to write such things off as belonging firmly in the realm of fiction, so it can be hard to overcome that ingrained bias and look at the subject neutrally.

I admit I am skeptical on many aspects, sort of like the Indian notion of climbing a rope into the heavens and having body parts drop down or breaking open a nut and having blood run out to show ones power. To me that borders on the old Snake Oil salesmen of the old west and their usage or gimmicks, props and other means of re-focusing your attention as they sold their product, what ever it might have been.

[Kahlenda]

Re: Discussing Sorcery

That thing about the brain is actually not true in the slightest. Source: Snopes

Science does not prove the existence of magic because the notion of magic such as manipulation of matter and energy with your mind is generally silly. A Physicist would tell you that matter interacts with different fields and their force carriers. What about that meets your definition of magic?

I have a list of Papers and studies you may wish to read XD

Instant communication between atoms - Browne 1997
Teleportation of Quantum Information - Zhao et al. 2004
Emotions and music, define water crystal structure - Emoto
Mind caused a change of water PH - Tiller 2001
Mind influenced a random number generator based on a quantum circuit - PEARlab Princeton

I could list more but thats enough reading material now.

[Heka]

Re: Discussing Sorcery

I'm a pragmatist. I do magic because it works for me. I could care less if its all in my head, or something divine, or superpowers, or whatever the heck...and I fully accept that it could be any and all of those things, or none of them. But in the end, I only care that what I do works out.

i agree. I have no idea where it comes from or how it works, but it works for me in my mind, so I'm satisfied.

[Aeran]

Re: Discussing Sorcery

I'd agree to a degree. Yet if one digs deeper you discover that it was usually a magical item that allowed for transformation such as in the Volsunga Saga its a magical wolf skin that allows the person and his son to become wolves. If not a magical item then a person who is usually guided or aided directly by the intervention of gods, I think it is Chu Chulian (sp) who is guided and raised by a goddess and gains much of his power from her. In some ways I suppose one could place the stories of Jesus or other prophet type figures into this category as they to wear a skin but it is often that of a divine connection to a god figure not entirely unlike that of the mythic hero.

Seldom did you find a modern notion or usage of magical means. No wands, chanted spells, sacred circles, etc. Heck if one said they used wind chimes I could see that as a toss back to the old archaic notion of Jynxs and their bird like songs that were used in "Magical" purposes or actions. The current notion of Hecate's Wheel probably a corrupted reference to a jynx and not what it has become but poor scholary work gone amuck.

You find a lot of reference to Selkies, Kelpies or such where the person was able to transform by wearing their clothing / skin or gaining great control over natural situations by hiding the skin and having a spouse of great beauty, power, skill, etc as long as they held the skin. In this category of things I think one could also place much of the lychanthropic tales of transformation as they were many times from a special skin or even of magical transformation which might equate to the Berserker type transformations that were by herbs and other means, some psychological. Perhaps even to the demonic face projected by warrior classes such as the Samurai in feudal Nippon (Japan) and all it implied.

Even in things like the mid-eastern fables one encounters creature's of great magical ability such as Djinn or Genies that are bound to items. Occasionally encountering more aggressive or dangerous creature' such as the Rakashka (sp) or other vampiric type beings.

I do admit that I tend to think many of the magical means mentioned are recorded in such a way simply due to the common person having no clue to their workings. As such transformations, transmutations, etc get very creative ways of describing them. Not all for sure but a great many I think probably do fall into that category along with a great deal of illusion and manipulation of what one see's or thinks they see.

, Prose Edda

http://freya.theladyofthelabyrinth.com/?page_id=258

, chapter 7

http://freya.theladyofthelabyrinth.com/?page_id=272

She went to her chest, - she dressed in silver.
She put gold on gold, - she covered her two hands with it
And all along the path, - she taught him the runes upon her white hand.
She taught him to change the weather - and to send the right wind.
"Danmarks Gamle Folkviser" (from Chants populaires scandinaves

http://www.nordic-life.org/nmh/feminine.htm

There's also, I can't remember the name off the top of my head, a Danish myth about a sorceress who raised an army of the dead to steal the throne or somesuch. Anyone remember it?

of course there's the question of timeline, most of these myths weren't written down until the late Dark Ages at the earliest, so it's possible that all of these elements found their way in later, and it's also, as you said, important to note that they were written for regular audiences by entertainers, not necessarily as a reflection of the actual magical practices which took place in these cultures. But that's also relevant in regards to classical culture, given that Hermetic thought had it's origin in the classical world, and that there was a steady trickle of cultural exchange with the East (where the more modern concept of magic as the control of energies or forces by humans iirc existed in Chinese and Indian philosophy even back during the time of Christ and earlier).

That's like the eastern notion of Rising of Kundalini which I agree with. Unfortunately, or fortunately I suppose, I find the western notion of it to be far from the eastern and the training and practice it takes to arrive at that point. Sort of the same difference between western karmic ideas and eastern karmic ideas and how it works. I suppose the Monks of parts of the Tibetan range who make a trek into the high mountains and survive with almost nothing by raising their own core temperature falls into the physical world manifestations.

Yep, there's a very strong parralels between the concepts, if you accept for the sake of discussion the energies/forces view of magic, then it could be viewed as seperate methods of tapping into the same power/force/energy within the human being. Speaking from personal experience, they definitely seem to be manifestations of the same phenomenon, I find the Western ritualized method more effective than the purely meditative/postural method from the East, which is probably just a personal preference.

http://www.alchemywebsite.com/secret-fire.html - a good article which explores the parralels between the concept of the kundalini/the secret fire in Yoga and Alchemical/Western Hermetic thought.

I tend to fall back upon Shakespeare's play HAMLET where we says ..There are more things beneath heaven and earth Horatio than are dreamt of by your philosophies. .. It's always reminded me to keep an open mind but not so open as to allow my brains to run out my ears.

That's a pretty healthy attitude, and one I try to keep. A quick look at the history of human development will reveal how many things there have been which people knew were true, right up until it was proved that they weren't.

I admit I am skeptical on many aspects, sort of like the Indian notion of climbing a rope into the heavens and having body parts drop down or breaking open a nut and having blood run out to show ones power. To me that borders on the old Snake Oil salesmen of the old west and their usage or gimmicks, props and other means of re-focusing your attention as they sold their product, what ever it might have been.

Yup, there's a ton of fraud, exploitation and bullshit out there, sadly. Just gotta keep Sturgeon's Law in mind: 90% of everything is crap. No reason magic/spirituality/religion should be any different

[Tylluan Penry]

Re: Discussing Sorcery

There is a huge amount of magic around us on a daily basis. There is a vast amount of evidence. But when does evidence become proof?

Just because I personally can't explain how magic works to another person doesn't mean it isn't happening. I can't explain a lot of things... electricity, wi-fi, why people eat fast food... oh the list is endless.

If someone doesn't want to believe then they won't. If they do then they will.

I'll give you an example. I have a rather weird psychic ability (and no, I'm not going into it here because the nature of the ability isn't relevant to this.) But the thing is that I can produce it at will, even record it for posterity. And I once came across someone who was doing psychic tests in the name of research, so I co-operated there and did everything I was asked to do. They were amazed. But...

The thing was, they had already decided that psychic ability was all bunk or charlatans. So in spite of the fact that here was someone who disproved that, they had to block me out. When the paper was published there was no mention of me. They had proved their point. Except... they had lied.

Now... well, I keep an open mind. And a large jar of salt.