Schools and Standardized testing

[DanieMarie]

Re: Schools and Standardized testing

[quote author=Tylluan Penry link=topic=514.msg7361#msg7361 date=1288210301]
This is a real difference between US and UK English. In the UK, public school is reserved for places like Eton and Harrow where the really posh and wealthy people go. They have a common entrance exam. Private schools on the other hand rarely have an entrace exam, but if you have the money you can go there. They are not as elite as the public school system.

Everyone else mostly goes to the local comprehensive.
[/quote]

Yeahhh that's resulted in some interesting (aka confusing) conversations with English friends about my "public school" education in Canada (which means that I went to a state school). And pretty much no one goes to private school....there are only 3 private schools on Vancouver Island and they're boarding schools. Even the wealthy go to public (as in state) school for the most part. They just wear better clothes :P

[thalassa]

Re: Schools and Standardized testing

[quote author=Raphaeline link=topic=514.msg7237#msg7237 date=1288188237]
Well, the people that wanted to be biologists never needed Art Apprec, and the artists have no use for Calculus. If they WANT to learn it, that's great, but forcing kids to learn everything there is to know is pointless.
[/quote]

Math through art or art achieved by math?

I can actually say that I have used art appreciation in my biology major ;D. Particularly if we were discussing the development of the sciences as a whole and natural history, the predecessor to biology in general, there are huge overlaps between art and literature--both of which were major driving forces for the natural sciences.

[Juniper]

Re: Schools and Standardized testing

Hmm... Actually. Biology and Math are often common foundations for Art. Fractals, anyone? I can post some cool links regarding math/art and biology/art when I get home.

[DanieMarie]

Re: Schools and Standardized testing

I think that also, it's important to have a well-rounded education, because you don't know what you're going to do at that age. If you'd asked me at 15 if I'd ever study business, I would have been like "pfffftttt."

[Raphaeline]

Re: Schools and Standardized testing

[quote author=thalassa link=topic=514.msg7381#msg7381 date=1288213093]
Math through art or art achieved by math?

I can actually say that I have used art appreciation in my biology major ;D. Particularly if we were discussing the development of the sciences as a whole and natural history, the predecessor to biology in general, there are huge overlaps between art and literature--both of which were major driving forces for the natural sciences.
[/quote]

Let me reword that -

It should be taught as needed in the field - for instance, a group of art students learning math together specifically with the goal of applying it to their craft - or sought out by the individual, for the most part. I'm not saying no one should learn about different things - I have an addiction to classes, regardless of whether I needed them for my major, so I'm one of the last people who will tell you not to learn something you don't absolutely NEED.

[Ophidia]

Re: Schools and Standardized testing

[quote author=Raphaeline link=topic=514.msg7414#msg7414 date=1288216545]
It should be taught as needed in the field - for instance, a group of art students learning math together specifically with the goal of applying it to their craft - or sought out by the individual, for the most part. I'm not saying no one should learn about different things - I have an addiction to classes, regardless of whether I needed them for my major, so I'm one of the last people who will tell you not to learn something you don't absolutely NEED.
[/quote]

I remember from one of my remedial college math classes (I had to take 4 'remedial' math classes to get to the point where I could take the one math class that would give me a credit for my degree, and at that point it became apparent why I should have worked harder to pass high school algebra & remember it for 20 years), the text book had one of the worst possible examples of the practical application of math in the workplace.

It said something along the lines of, "you'll never know when you might need to practically apply the problem-solving approach of (insert math type here)" and then proceeded to give the formula for determining the amount of fuel a particular type of fighter jet used during take-off and landing.

Yeah... /facepalm

[DanieMarie]

Re: Schools and Standardized testing

When it comes to school (like primary and secondary) at least too, I think it's not always so much -what- you do as how it makes you think. Like, most people wont have to interpret poetry in real life and write an essay on it, but many people have to analyze somewhat obscure situations and give reports on them.
It's not so much about the actual things you do as it is about learning to problem solve, analyze things and communicate ideas well.

I don't take issue with the actual things learned in school...I just don't really think that standardized testing allows people to fully learn the above, or to be able to think creatively (which, in the 21t century is arguably one of the most important skills you can possess).

[thalassa]

Re: Schools and Standardized testing

[quote author=DanieMarie link=topic=514.msg7539#msg7539 date=1288252843]
It's not so much about the actual things you do as it is about learning to problem solve, analyze things and communicate ideas well.

I don't take issue with the actual things learned in school...I just don't really think that standardized testing allows people to fully learn the above, or to be able to think creatively (which, in the 21t century is arguably one of the most important skills you can possess).
[/quote]

The only thing I would add to this is we need people to be able to think analytically as well...

[DanieMarie]

Re: Schools and Standardized testing

[quote author=thalassa link=topic=514.msg7560#msg7560 date=1288259377]
The only thing I would add to this is we need people to be able to think analytically as well...
[/quote]

That's what I meant by learning to analyze....just different wording

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Schools and Standardized testing

[quote author=thalassa link=topic=514.msg7207#msg7207 date=1288179505]
I don't know about that entirely...

Really trivia, those trifling little details, have a way of building up...particularly in the field of say, science. Why would it matter in a classroom that some second or third grader knows the distinction of what a is predator vs prey, and examples of such? Because eventually that predator-prey interaction becomes an essential part of any discussion of energy transfer, population cycling, and coevolution. If you never learn about the petty details of what a gas, a liquid and a solid are early enough to discussion about the nature of matter becomes much harder later on.


[/quote]

Yes - you're right. I stated it as an either/or distinction, which is definitely wrong.

As I see it, information, when in conext, is knowledge. Information, when understood only as isolated bits, is trivia.

To learn any subject, a person has to have certain basic information in order to think and speak the language of that subject. For example, in painting class when I am demonstrating how to add shadows without turning the painting into a muddy mess, I have to explain what "complimentary colors" are.

So I might end up putting a question like "Define complimentary colors" on a test. The answer to that question will tell me if the student has the lowest level of understanding (rrecall, which is remembering bits of information - what I'm calling "trivia&quot - but I'll have to evaluate the student's painting to know if the students has the highest level of understanding (synthesis, which is the ability to use one's knowledge and experience to create something new).

The tests can test recall very, very well because multiple choice questions will show if one can recall information or not. Multiple choice tests can be scored by computers, quickly and cheaply.

However, synthesis needs to be evaluated by skilled, knowledgeable experts in the field - which makes it very expensive to test. You gotta pay those skilled, knowledgeable experts for the forty minutes it takes them to evaluate each one of the hundred thousand questions they have to score.

This is where DanieMarie's "out of the box thinking" comes in - it was evaluated by human beings who knew the subject, and could tell that she was engaging in synthesis. Computers can't recognize as correct anything for which they are not programmed, so synthesis, which by definition demonstrates creativity and "out of the box" thinking, is marked WRONG by them.

[quote author=Juniper link=topic=514.msg7383#msg7383 date=1288213406]
Hmm... Actually. Biology and Math are often common foundations for Art. Fractals, anyone? I can post some cool links regarding math/art and biology/art when I get home.
[/quote]

The link between art and science is a lot stronger than most people realize - unfortunately, they are often treated as if they are irreconcilable opposites. The Italian Renaissance, which was such an enormous leap forward for the humanities (which includes art AND science) involved both art and science because they both had such a powerful synergistic effect on each other.

If you flip through DaVinci's notebooks (to give one example), you'll have a hard time telling if they are art books, or science books. In order to understand color and perspective, DaVinci made minute observations, based on dissections, of the eye, and you'll find page after page of speculation on how the eye works.

In order to draw the human figure accurately (he accused his contemporaries of drawing muscles that looked like a sack of potatoes, or maybe it was beets), he spent enormous time dissecting bodies and making extremely accurate drawings of anatomical structures... which also taught him a heck of a lot about mechanics, since the human body is a very effective and well constructed machine.

[magusphredde]

Re: Schools and Standardized testing

Something I haven't heard here yet about "standardized" testing is that a lot of times the tests are revised DOWN so that the students are on a more equal footing going in ... That is not life ... Nothing in life is set acording to the lowest factor except the food chain ... Competition is everywhere ... Finding a job ... Keeping it ... Getting promoted ... Finding a mate ... Raising kids ... Keeping the weeds out of the garden ...

Here is my version of a standardized graduation speech ...
"Ladies, gentlemen, parents, school staff and fellow students ... We who are about to graduate may not know a thing but at least we feel good about our selves" ...



*shuffles off to Buffalo*