Forced Sterilization in Prison

[monsno_leedra]

Re: Forced Sterilization in Prison

Well considering I'm in my 50's and have first hand knowledge and exposure to the Eugenics program through member's of my family who were sterilized in their youth I don't care for nor support the idea. My Aunt by marriage sterilized while in an orphanage after her family abandoned her, one aunt by blood sterilized after the state placed them in a home, a grandmother who always spoke of the operations performed on other girls who were younger to keep them from certain things or passing on certain traits. Figure poorness was also considered a social trait that could be removed by sterilization in the 1920 - 1940's for instance. So it was not just directed as the mentally or physically ill or carriers of certain perceived traits.

Though I have to say some of the reasoning presented here, even if in jest bothers me more than the subject content. Suggestions of so guards can rape the inmates, reasons for The Nazi movement, WWII, etc seems so uninformed or emotional baggage it just astounds me. Makes one wonder how long it will be before the whole program comes back given the justifications that are presented.

[anunitu]

Re: Forced Sterilization in Prison

Eugenics was in fact a movement from much earlier in the last few years of the 19th century,and came to effect laws before Hitler ever came to power. There were sterilization laws in all the states but were reversed after a time,some not until the mid 20th century.

https://people.creighton.edu/~idc24708/Genes/Eugenics/History%20of%20Eugenics.htm

A quote:
"Eugenicists believed genetics were the cause of problems for the human gene pool. Eugenics stated that society already had paid enough to support these degenerates and the use of sterilization would save money. The eugenicists used quantitative facts to produce scientific evidence. They believed that charity and welfare only treated the symptoms, eugenic sought to eliminate the disease. The following traits were seen as degenerative to the human gene pool to which the eugenicists were determined to eliminate: poverty, feeble-mindedness-including manic depression, schizophrenia, alcoholism, rebelliousness, criminality, nomadness, prostitution."

[Willow]

Re: Forced Sterilization in Prison

Opposed.

If you've already murdered a child and can't be trusted not to repeat the procedure then we've got prison, mental institutions and if you really annoy society, certain states have death sentences. Any of the three will keep you from murdering any child instead of merely prevent you from murdering your own. If you can be trusted not to kill a child then there's no need.

Agreed. Seconded? I'm not great at legal terms...

[MoonRaven]

Re: Forced Sterilization in Prison

Just wanted to say, eugenics did not give us the Nazi parties, Fascism, or WWII.

The Nazi party started as a gang in Germany lead by Hitler.

WWII started when Hitler rose to power and started breaking the Treaty Of Versaille, the treaty made at the end of WWI. Britain kept appeasing Hitler instead of stomping the bugger out earlier.

Eugenics was a by product of the Nazi party and their twisted ideals.

did happen.

- - - Updated - - -

Agreed. Seconded? I'm not great at legal terms...

Erh, thirded? Not great at legal terms and such either. At least not in English.

[Willow]

Re: Forced Sterilization in Prison

Erh, thirded? Not great at legal terms and such either. At least not in English.

Yay, it's not just me! ^^

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Forced Sterilization in Prison

Opposed.

If you've already murdered a child and can't be trusted not to repeat the procedure then we've got prison, mental institutions and if you really annoy society, certain states have death sentences. Any of the three will keep you from murdering any child instead of merely prevent you from murdering your own. If you can be trusted not to kill a child then there's no need.

Agreed. Forced sterilization, for whatever reason, would be such a massive human rights violation, that the problems it would cause are at least as bad, if not worse, then the problem it might aim to solve.

In addition, nobody trusts their government - no matter how fine it might be right now, in the present - to rely on them to make "good" decisions on something like this (whatever the word "good" might mean in this context). Why would anybody seriously consider giving this much control to a government?

[Hawkfeathers]

Re: Forced Sterilization in Prison

Oh. You meant a certain faction of pro-life then, I think.

If you choose to call it that, that's great by me! I don't, which is also great by me! I'm not here to nitpick semantics. I simply haven't heard various groups speak out on this issue.
I don't support either forced sterilization or forced fertility, personally.

[RainbowDemonic]

Re: Forced Sterilization in Prison

When, if ever, should forced sterilization in women be allowed? Why do I ask? Apparently in California, some prison officials have been accused of doing this.


sauce

Now I know most of us want to say NEVER. But let's just throw this out. A woman kills her children. Drowns them and doesn't get a life sentence. Or let's say is found to have munchausen syndrome by proxy. And she's killed, let's say 3 of her children. Is she a candidate for forced sterilization?

Yes, she's totally a candidate for sterilization in my mind. I can think of a few other examples too. I don't know why people care so much about the right to breed. Is it really that important to make babies? Seriously? Really women cannot control their "baby itch" (as a friend of mine called the urge to have babies) and really, the ONLY way to express our nurturing instincts is to just breed? That's just sad, to me. So yes, I'm absolutely all for sterilization in certain cases (no blanket rules in my mind, so I can't exactly lay out a list here - I'd think of it in a case-by-case way).

Also my first thought upon reading this was, "Holy crap I want some free sterilization!" If only, man! Doctors would get their panties in a wad about ethics if I dare ask, and say ridiculous things like "Oh you're too young, you'll change your mind, wait until you have a couple kids" or whatnot, lol. I've had my mind made up since I was a teenager, don't see why it would change after over a decade of consistency. ;P

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Forced Sterilization in Prison

Yes, she's totally a candidate for sterilization in my mind. I can think of a few other examples too. I don't know why people care so much about the right to breed. Is it really that important to make babies? Seriously? Really women cannot control their "baby itch" (as a friend of mine called the urge to have babies) and really, the ONLY way to express our nurturing instincts is to just breed? That's just sad, to me. So yes, I'm absolutely all for sterilization in certain cases (no blanket rules in my mind, so I can't exactly lay out a list here - I'd think of it in a case-by-case way).

Gee... Seriously? You are the one to determine which of our human impulses are acceptable, and which aren't?

I understand that you don't get it. Ask anybody around here who has children what they think of the idea that they have to ask permission of the government to have one, and be enlightened.

However, my primary reason to be against such a thing as this is that there is nobody, anywhere who I would trust well enough to give them that much power. The government has certain responsibilities to the people whom they rule - but choosing how to breed us oversteps any authority that (IMHO) a rational person would assign them.

[Willow]

Re: Forced Sterilization in Prison

Yes, she's totally a candidate for sterilization in my mind. I can think of a few other examples too. I don't know why people care so much about the right to breed. Is it really that important to make babies? Seriously? Really women cannot control their "baby itch" (as a friend of mine called the urge to have babies) and really, the ONLY way to express our nurturing instincts is to just breed? That's just sad, to me. So yes, I'm absolutely all for sterilization in certain cases (no blanket rules in my mind, so I can't exactly lay out a list here - I'd think of it in a case-by-case way).

Also my first thought upon reading this was, "Holy crap I want some free sterilization!" If only, man! Doctors would get their panties in a wad about ethics if I dare ask, and say ridiculous things like "Oh you're too young, you'll change your mind, wait until you have a couple kids" or whatnot, lol. I've had my mind made up since I was a teenager, don't see why it would change after over a decade of consistency. ;P

A friend of mine had her tubes tied at the age of 22 simply because she doesn't want children. It's not an impossibility if you really are that desperate NOT to have kids.

For the rest of us (or at least myself)... your entire statement is just insulting on so many levels... I don't even know where to begin. It's probably better that I don't bother.

[Optimistic discord]

Re: Forced Sterilization in Prison

Gee... Seriously? You are the one to determine which of our human impulses are acceptable, and which aren't?

I understand that you don't get it. Ask anybody around here who has children what they think of the idea that they have to ask permission of the government to have one, and be enlightened.

However, my primary reason to be against such a thing as this is that there is nobody, anywhere who I would trust well enough to give them that much power. The government has certain responsibilities to the people whom they rule - but choosing how to breed us oversteps any authority that (IMHO) a rational person would assign them.

Indeed,
I think its safe to assume that the benchmarks for "who gets to breed" would end up favoring those with wealth.
Having the security of a home would inevitably become a requirement, and given that in the UK 5 million people earn below the living wage, and one third of the country is priced out of the pockets of those earning less than the average national wage......

[monsno_leedra]

Re: Forced Sterilization in Prison

Hey the movie Idiocracy (2006) shows what the future is going to be like anyway. Fertility will produce a steady decline of intelligence as the intelligent and rich wait longer and longer to have children while the other side will breed and breed and breed. Average IQ's will become the new High.

[wisp]

Re: Forced Sterilization in Prison

On the idea of an IQ test for parents.. I know some very intelligent people who would make horrifying parents and some..simpler people who have made very lovely parents.

Exhibit A: My father didn't even graduate junior high. He was very attentive, taught me to laugh a lot, taught me a lot of respect for nature. Was growing up perfect? No. But it was happy. I was able to out-logic my father by the time I hit junior high school. I was helping him spell when I was old enough to know how to spell myself. He isn't a clever man, but he's a very sweet, very good-hearted man. I know that, no matter what, if my entire life collapses, I can go sleep on his couch and he'll try to give me more than he can afford to make it better.

Exhibit B: My husband's father is a university graduate, has always been upper-middle class. He is well spoken and well respected. And everyone in Nick's (my husband) life thinks he should cut ties with the man. He is manipulative, crushing and, at times, abusive. He has, in the past, hit Nick and thrown him down stairs. He does, regularly, talk down to him and try to crush any forward motion that Nick may attempt.

Intelligence does not a good parent make. It can help, sure, but it isn't the key ingredient in determining if someone will be a good parent.

There is no reliable method to judge whether or not someone will be a good parent. Even people who appear like good candidates could have underlying issues, or could one day just melt down. There's not really any way to accurately predict this.

Forced sterilization is not something I support. It ranks alongside cutting off a hand for theft. It's unnecessary force and cruel and unusual. Imprisonment should be sufficient and perhaps instead of coming up with more severe methods of punishing delinquents we ought to examine current justice systems and methods of rehabilitation. Rework and fix the structure, don't just patch it with increasingly severe reactions.

[WinterTraditions]

Re: Forced Sterilization in Prison

Gee... Seriously? You are the one to determine which of our human impulses are acceptable, and which aren't?

Corbin, gentle. This thread basically asked for the opinions of the member. That is what Rainbow did. Technically, because it asked for an opinion, she is "Determining which of our human impulses are acceptable, and which aren't". There is nothing wrong with an opinion, because it is only an opinion. It is not fact. She isn't saying this is what she is going to do. Simply that in her "perfect world" scenario, that would be the way things are.

On the idea of an IQ test for parents.. I know some very intelligent people who would make horrifying parents and some..simpler people who have made very lovely parents.

Exhibit A: My father didn't even graduate junior high. He was very attentive, taught me to laugh a lot, taught me a lot of respect for nature. Was growing up perfect? No. But it was happy. I was able to out-logic my father by the time I hit junior high school. I was helping him spell when I was old enough to know how to spell myself. He isn't a clever man, but he's a very sweet, very good-hearted man. I know that, no matter what, if my entire life collapses, I can go sleep on his couch and he'll try to give me more than he can afford to make it better.

Exhibit B: My husband's father is a university graduate, has always been upper-middle class. He is well spoken and well respected. And everyone in Nick's (my husband) life thinks he should cut ties with the man. He is manipulative, crushing and, at times, abusive. He has, in the past, hit Nick and thrown him down stairs. He does, regularly, talk down to him and try to crush any forward motion that Nick may attempt.

Intelligence does not a good parent make. It can help, sure, but it isn't the key ingredient in determining if someone will be a good parent.

There is no reliable method to judge whether or not someone will be a good parent. Even people who appear like good candidates could have underlying issues, or could one day just melt down. There's not really any way to accurately predict this.

Forced sterilization is not something I support. It ranks alongside cutting off a hand for theft. It's unnecessary force and cruel and unusual. Imprisonment should be sufficient and perhaps instead of coming up with more severe methods of punishing delinquents we ought to examine current justice systems and methods of rehabilitation. Rework and fix the structure, don't just patch it with increasingly severe reactions.

I would think that along with an IQ test, there would be a mental health test. IQ isn't based on if you graduated or not. Indeed, there are smart individuals who have not graduated high school, for example. Not every smart person has to go on to university to become a scientist or other "IQ oriented" occupation.

[wisp]

Re: Forced Sterilization in Prison

The graduating thing was just a point of reference, and really beside the point. I have a decent IQ and am certainly not pursuing an IQ oriented career, so I know that first hand. I'm just saying that people who would, for all outward appearances, look capable, are not necessarily good parents. And those who look like maybe they aren't as capable can surprise you. There's no test for that. Besides which, as someone else pointed out, the tests would favour the rich because of the access they have to resources as well as to things like education and, in some countries, better health programs. It wouldn't be a means of preventing crime so much as controlling the populace.