Controlling the weather through the use of magick.

[Vigdisdotter]

Re: Controlling the weather through the use of magick.

Nope only looking at the justification against what I've done in the past and how the justification still doesn't fit.

Really. So by all means, do tell me about that seminar, the people that attended, what was involved with getting the guest instructor in, what kind of funds we had to work with.....

[monsno_leedra]

Re: Controlling the weather through the use of magick.

.. Perhaps the more relevant question is SHOULD we control or influence the weather? That seems to be the dissenting factor in the thread thus far.

I'd have to agree on the should we and it's the dissenting aspect.

I have heard people argue that working with weather spirits to change the weather is more ethical than working the energies themselves. The argument being that the weather spirits will compensate for any changes to other areas, and ensure that no ill effects come from your changes. I'm not entirely sold on that idea myself, because I don't believe that the weather spirits have humanity's best interests at heart. They work with the land spirits to ensure what's best for the land on a long term scale, not what's best for the next town over. Turning aside a hurricane may save your town, but destroy the next and kill hundreds of people in the process. It seems to me that leaving that decision up to the weather spirits is simply blame-shifting.

From a shamanic type aspect seeing weather spirits (whether they be water or air) as useful allies one calls upon seems to be a first nation and aboriginal perspective from what I've come across. Especially in conjunction with other allies from the other peoples. It is interesting to me though how some will also call upon the notion of the four winds to do the dirty work as well. Call the hot south wind to dry it up then its the winds fought for taking to much or damaging the balance of things. I do think it is trying to pass the buck though when you do the the spirits will take what they want and leave the rest to others so you don't have to be concerned about it.

[Doc_Holliday]

Re: Controlling the weather through the use of magick.

(This is all in my opinion and I'm only stating it like fact because this is how I see it in my view.)

I disagree that weather can be directly controlled by a human at all. Why?

I'm a hard polytheist, so I believe in many gods and goddesses. If I could influence where the clouds rain and where they don't or how hard the sun shines, why would we have gods and goddesses of rain and sun?

If humans could do the duty of gods and goddesses with little energy rituals why in the world would there be a need for them? Sure Thor can crack his hammer off his anvil to create the thunder and lightning, but its just so much easier to sit down on my purple carpet and wish the rain away.

And, since humans are not divine and not of divine minds and capabilities. We cannot responsibly harness such power without screwing up the world in a major or minor way. What if one hot summer it started to rain and the local energy workers said "How pesky, dang nabbit, it rained on my parade! Well do not tarry fellow citizens, for I, can control the weather!" and then they banish all the rain and lived happily ever after. But, the local forests barely got damp and needed a good rain but were just denied it so it was so dry that a large forest fire spread because of a few sparks in the wind from reckless campers. Also, whats to stop jo blow the energy worker from wishing for terrible draughts all over the place?

See to me its obvious humans can't change weather with magic because there would have been proven examples of it.

And don't you think the local weather station or satellite video would find it peculiar or notice if a couple blocks randomly cleared of rain around a martial arts place?


Long story short, we aren't divine, and we should stop trying to be divine, at least thats what I think.

[Rae'ya]

Re: Controlling the weather through the use of magick.

From a shamanic type aspect seeing weather spirits (whether they be water or air) as useful allies one calls upon seems to be a first nation and aboriginal perspective from what I've come across. Especially in conjunction with other allies from the other peoples. It is interesting to me though how some will also call upon the notion of the four winds to do the dirty work as well. Call the hot south wind to dry it up then its the winds fought for taking to much or damaging the balance of things. I do think it is trying to pass the buck though when you do the the spirits will take what they want and leave the rest to others so you don't have to be concerned about it.

This is the way I see it. From what I've learned, most native and shamanic weather working is calling on weather spirits, not moving energies about on our own. But that's not to say that those people automatically shift the blame onto the spirits if something goes wrong. Your relationship with your weather spirit allies may not last long if you start up with that lol.

But I HAVE seen modern shamanic practitioners (core and non-core) using that argument to absolve themselves of any ethical considerations. Turning aside a hurricane and assuring us that they didn't have to worry about the next town because the weather spirits were the ones who would take care of all of that. That, to me, just shows a fundamental lack of understanding about the relationship between weather spirits, land spirits and humans. Either that or an external locus of control... that sort of denial that says 'it isn't my fault what the weather spirits did... I just asked them not to bring the hurricane here, it's up to them where they send it instead'. I don't find that particularly honorable.

It's true that some spirits will take on the responsibility themselves, especially the larger, more powerful ones. But many of the smaller local weather spirits are capricious and willful and may twist your requests around. I think that it's up to the practitioner to understand the nature of the spirits they are working with and what the possible ramifications of said workings will be. If you're going to bring them into your service, then the responsibility becomes shared, at the very least. I don't think that you can just wash your hands and say 'well, it's up to the spirits now, it's not my fault if the local farm goes bankrupt because they don't have a harvest this year'.

[Vigdisdotter]

Re: Controlling the weather through the use of magick.

I'm a hard polytheist, so I believe in many gods and goddesses. If I could influence where the clouds rain and where they don't or how hard the sun shines, why would we have gods and goddesses of rain and sun?

I'm a hard polytheist and I'm honestly not seeing the connection here.

Then again, for all that I see the gods as individuals, I do not see them as limited to roles such as "gods of sun and rain". They may choose to influence such things, but that's not all they are. Nor is there any reason to think they are the only one's able to influence such things.

If humans could do the duty of gods and goddesses with little energy rituals why in the world would there be a need for them?

Because they enrich our lives? That's how I see it. I don't believe in them because I want something out of them. I believe in/follow them for the same reason I have friends; their being part of my life makes is all the more interesting and rewarding.

And, since humans are not divine and not of divine minds and capabilities. We cannot responsibly harness such power without screwing up the world in a major or minor way.

I don't agree with that limitation at all. But general magical theory suggests that if you limit yourself thusly in your own mind, so to will your power be limited. So for you, that statement is no doubt true.

And don't you think the local weather station or satellite video would find it peculiar or notice if a couple blocks randomly cleared of rain around a martial arts place?

Sure, if they bothered to look. But why would they? And those that did, why would they react with anything other then "oh, that's kind of cool"? This isn't Hollywood. There is no shimmering barrier to be seen.

[monsno_leedra]

Re: Controlling the weather through the use of magick.

This is the way I see it. From what I've learned, most native and shamanic weather working is calling on weather spirits, not moving energies about on our own. But that's not to say that those people automatically shift the blame onto the spirits if something goes wrong. Your relationship with your weather spirit allies may not last long if you start up with that lol.

Most of the people I've spoken to would simply say the spirits did not want it to happen or they did what was best for all their charges not just the human ones. Just me but I find that local spirits tend to look at things one way while the transient ones who come in with storms from other places only care about the storm they ride. Now are there different spirits? All I can say is the tempest out in deep water (surface or subsurface) has a different feel than those close to shore and still different than that found in the mountains.

But I HAVE seen modern shamanic practitioners (core and non-core) using that argument to absolve themselves of any ethical considerations. Turning aside a hurricane and assuring us that they didn't have to worry about the next town because the weather spirits were the ones who would take care of all of that. That, to me, just shows a fundamental lack of understanding about the relationship between weather spirits, land spirits and humans. Either that or an external locus of control... that sort of denial that says 'it isn't my fault what the weather spirits did... I just asked them not to bring the hurricane here, it's up to them where they send it instead'. I don't find that particularly honorable.

I recall what I know as a major spirit of place telling me to get out of the storms way not to move the storm out of my way. That particular storm was a hurricane the totally changed the river basin where that spirit was found yet that seemed to be what it desired. I think in part because we see time in such a different perspective than most of the major or minor land spirits and even our allies of the other peoples.

It's true that some spirits will take on the responsibility themselves, especially the larger, more powerful ones. But many of the smaller local weather spirits are capricious and willful and may twist your requests around. I think that it's up to the practitioner to understand the nature of the spirits they are working with and what the possible ramifications of said workings will be. If you're going to bring them into your service, then the responsibility becomes shared, at the very least. I don't think that you can just wash your hands and say 'well, it's up to the spirits now, it's not my fault if the local farm goes bankrupt because they don't have a harvest this year'.

I always though one has to know the area and land and how it works. The smallest of things will occasionally speak the loudest and try to suggest they are more powerful than they are but loose control when they do.

[Rae'ya]

Re: Controlling the weather through the use of magick.

Most of the people I've spoken to would simply say the spirits did not want it to happen or they did what was best for all their charges not just the human ones. Just me but I find that local spirits tend to look at things one way while the transient ones who come in with storms from other places only care about the storm they ride. Now are there different spirits? All I can say is the tempest out in deep water (surface or subsurface) has a different feel than those close to shore and still different than that found in the mountains.

I think there are definitely different spirits... some argue that there is a different spirit for each individual storm. I don't work closely with weather spirits myself, so I couldn't attest to that. But I do feel that storms at least have their own individual spirit, perhaps amalgamated from some minor weather spirits to create a larger one.

Whether something is local or transient I put down more to the land spirits than the weather spirits. Weather spirits themselves are, by nature, transient. They may be recurring (such as the wind spirits that service a particular place) but they are rooted to a place only by their relationship with the local land spirits. Perhaps wind spirits would have a different outlook than storm spirits, because they have a more recurring relationship with the land spirit, whereas a storm spirit would blow in once and not return.

Whether the local human life factored into the decisions of what was 'good' or 'bad' for a place would depend on the land spirits, I feel, rather than the weather spirits. If a land spirit doesn't care about it's human population, then why should the rain spirits care? Aside from the capriciousness of some weather spirits, which may lend them to cater to a human weather-worker just for the fun of it, as long as it doesn't affect it's agreement with the land spirit. Most land spirits themselves don't value human life over any other life within it's boundaries.... we are just one part of the ecosystem, and in some places we are a negative factor that is actively disliked by the land spirit. The land spirits care about the land and what is best for their own little ecosystem. That's something that humans often can't wrap their head around... that we are not actually that important in the grand scheme of things. And the things that we consider important for the land may not be correct. Landspirits in particular are ancient and long lived... they are looking at things from a completely different place than we are. What's one human settlement to them when they will live millenia? Hell, what's one little river to them when they'll live through the lives of a hundred different rivers. Land spirits will form relationships with people and may be propitiated into making changes or caring, but they have different agendas to us. And the weather spirits report to the land spirits far more than they do to us.

I always though one has to know the area and land and how it works. The smallest of things will occasionally speak the loudest and try to suggest they are more powerful than they are but loose control when they do.

I agree here. In the previous post I was talking more about the blame-shifting aspect. If one wants to work successful and beneficial weather-working then you have to work with the land spirits as much as the weather spirits... I think I touched on that briefly in my previous posts. My point about knowing the nature of the weather spirits is because some of the lesser rain and wind spirits are capricious and tricksome... they are just as like to oppose you then help you if the whim takes them. So if you are working with those, you'd best be aware of that. Knowing the nature of the spirits you are calling on is important if you want to have any sort of control over the outcome.

And lets face it... a lot of people who do minor weather-working end up working with the lesser spirits without ever realising the deeper connections. Sometimes minor weather-working is your own energy shifting the energy currents of the weather... sometimes it's the rain spirits playfully holding back when the child chants the 'rain, rain go away' song... sometimes it's the rain spirits playfully holding back so that you make a dash from your car, only to downpour just before you reach the shelter. There are different levels to weather-working. lol

- - - Updated - - -

I should clarify my first statement... I don't work closely with weather spirits for the purposes of weather-working. But I do connect with them and play with them and honor them as they sweep through my area (and sometimes grumble at them lol). So I know weather spirits in that sense. I've just never asked any to change the weather for my own benefit.