I have been thinking lately about the two roles in my life...that of a pagan and that of a linguist. As you may or may not know, I am a freelance translator (Chinese and Japanese into English, in case your curious). I have read some things on here about how you guys deal with your rituals, but I was wondering...would you think that doing spellwork or ritual-related work using a different tongue would add a different dimension to your workings. That is, do you think language itself can be a powerful tool? It would be especially interesting to hear what some of you who live in other countries and speak different languages feel. Thank you in advance!
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Linguistics and the Craft
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Cat Freak
- Jul 2013
- 3337
- Kemetic reconstructionist, I guess... Solitary. devotee of Djehuty and Bast
- male
- In my reality
- Rawr
Re: Linguistics and the Craft
I know 3 languages, and I study my 4th right now.
Speaking on a different language might turn useful for some people. I was wondering about it too, actually."Fair means that everybody gets what they need. And the only way to get that is to make it happen yourself."
Since I adore cats, I might write something strange or unusual in my comment.Cats are awesome!!! ^_^
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Supporter
- Oct 2010
- 3656
- Shamanist Witch with heady Celtic notes and a faint wiccan bouquet
- female
- North East England
Re: Linguistics and the Craft
In short, yes. I very much believe that words have power, in any language. I don't believe in 'magic words' in the sense that particular words hold more power than others, but rather that all word are magic. Of course they are.. without words, we would have much less power over our everyday existence. It is words that allow me to ask my boss for a day off, or arrange to meet up with my friends, or tell the doctor what is wrong with me.. all of these things are about manifesting my needs and wants, which fundamentally is all magic is: a way of taking what you desire, and making it happen... whether that is by simply asking for something, or doing some kind of ritual. I have a new TV stand.. it cost me nothing.. because my boss was throwing one away and I simply asked if I could have it..I don't really see how that is that is so different from lighting a candle and saying a poem about a TV stand at my altar. In fact, the spell at my altar may not have hit home, but my direct request worked instantly.. making it surely one of the most powerful forms of magic there is.
I'm undecided as to whether I would speak to my gods in my L2. I'm only proficient in so far as I can communicate my basic feelings and opinions to my native speaking friends. It's enough to survive a few hours together on a Saturday night, but I can't be creative with the words I chose (or even grammatically accurate ^^). I understand that in Japanese, some words appear on the surface to have similar translations in English, but as I have little to compare them to in L1, it is very hard for a native speaker to explain the differences to me in a way that would let me be more consciously selective of the words I choose. For example, when I read or hear the words 様子、情況、状態 and when I am using it to mean my current situation, maybe also 環境 my brain comprehends them all the same way and I am unaware of the differences in nuance, that a native might pick up on. It doesn't really stop me from being understood, but it prevents me from being able to add subtle nuance to my speech in the way my advanced friends can, as all I can do is say the first word that comes into my mind.. This is a problem I particularly experience when I use adverbs. I don't really know the difference between 大分、かなり、なかなか、けっこう、随分 for example and will use them interchangeably whenever I'd choose 'quite' or 'rather' in English.
So.. my point is that if I were to write a ritual or spell in Japanese, I might not really be saying what I think I am. and I couldn't add poetry and depth through my careful selection of words. So I think for me at least, I would lose something, although I think for someone who has mastered the language, this wouldn't be so much of a problem. That said, I came to witchcraft via wicca (roughly 8 years of which was spent in a coven), and I was told that the reason some wiccans use languages they're not familiar with, is that they aren't distracted by the meaning of the words and so can focus their subconscious more. I admit that chanting out meaningless vowels as a group is a pretty powerful experience, but then so was raising energy by sending a clap around the circle, so I don't think it was the words, but just the group effort that made it so powerful.
I guess in the end, it comes down to personal choice and what feels best. Mind you, as my deities are Celtic, I think they'd be pretty confused if I started speaking to them in Japanese!夕方に急なにわか雨は「夕立」と呼ばれるなら、なぜ朝ににわか雨は「朝立ち」と呼ばれないの? ^^If a sudden rain shower in the evening is referred to as an 'evening stand', then why isn't a shower in the morning called 'morning stand'?
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Kick Ass Little Crow
- Oct 2010
- 2413
- Eclectic Hellenic
- He/Him
- New York
- Because I knew nothing, nothing was beneath me.
Re: Linguistics and the Craft
A long held belief in many cultures is that words have power, especially names. A word is basically a name, since a word is what we call a particular concept, thing, action or idea. All language has power in it and magic. Is one any better than another? I don't think so. Could you worship deities or do spellwork in an alternate language? well of course you could, but why would you? I'm certainly sure deities either know most earthly languages or else just understand in some magical way. When people "talk" with their deities, it's possible that the language between them is a construct used to make it understandable to the person and the deity may in fact not be talking in that language or any language.
Maybe you want to be closer to your god by speaking the language of the area they were worshiped. Good idea but ultimately pointless isn't it? wouldn't the language have evolved or morphed so much from the time of an ancient deity that it would be like something totally different? Just look at what's happened to english over the last few centuries, english is my first language and The Canterbury Tales is practically gibberish to me. If you try to learn a reconstructed version of the language from the period, there is no way of knowing if you're speaking it correctly or communicating the way you want to be.
Personally? I have been known to add the occasional ominous latin chanting in spellwork but that's more for my own amusement since my family likes to intrude. Some of it is for the subconscious benefit. Most of us have grown up with strange words in spellwork that we see in movies and books. Adding some careful words in other languages, or doing something like rearranging letters of your own languages' words can make you feel more "magical" and make your spells stronger. Languages have been invented through the years (you could even make your own in an afternoon or two). When it comes to the magic in linguistics I feel the intent of the word has more to do with it. In reality words only mean what they do because we attribute meaning to them, they're essentially nonsense to anyone that doesn't know the language. I would like to think there's some primal tongue that everyone and everything could understand without learning a language. I do think it exists but I don't think it's a language because the undeniable thing about language is that it's a learned ability.
I would probably never try to communicate with my deities in a different language. I know english, some latin and conversational french, none of which is useful in any way to the Kemetic or Greek deities I follow. It's true I like to call the Kemetic deities I work with by their kemetic names (rather than the more widely known Greek ones) but it's a matter of preference and I know they'll answer to either.Circe
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Silver Member
- May 2013
- 2847
- Shamanic Practitioner & Green / Hedge Witch with Hellenic leanings
- West Virginia
- Can't never did nothing till it tried!
Re: Linguistics and the Craft
I try to learn proper names and such but as far as being proficient in a foreign language for me it's a no go. It's like Hecate / Hekate in Greek has no formal H sound so Hecate / Hekate has no H but an ECK sound, so Eck-Ah-Tey. To me that just seems proper sort of like learning the proper cartouche for the Egyptian gods / goddesses I call upon vice just using their names.
I recall I was taking college Spanish while I was stationed in Spain and just happened to notice the class staring at me. Unknowingly I had started in Spanish, couldn't remember the correct Spanish for the word and inserted French a couple of times or Japanese a few other times. My instructor answered me back saying she recognized when I crossed to French and could follow as she also spoke French but the Japanese just threw her. Yet it never registered I switched only that I knew I wasn't speaking English and used the word or words for what I was trying to say.I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!
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Re: Linguistics and the Craft
Jembru and Corvus, I thank you so much for your responses, and Jembru, I had a geek moment of joy when I saw that you too did some Japanese! I think you might have a point with maybe saying things that may not have the nuance you intended. As for Corvus, since I really don't pray to any deity (well, it's kind of complicated I guess, but to make it simple, I just kind of try to connect with Universe and Mother Nature as a whole), for me, the language would just be kind of about intensifying the experience. Indeed, for me, I feel like I have different personalities when I am speaking the different languages I know and so it adds a different experience. By different personalities I mean this: When I am speaking/chatting in Mandarin, I am more academic and can be a tad more serious, while in Japanese, I can be very eccentric and humorous. My English is one or the other or a combination depending on the situation. Therefore, I feel that when doing spellwork, it would probably bring a new type of energy to my emotions and thus to my workings.
As well Jembru, when it comes to nuances, with some of the words that you typed in Japanese, I knew the differences in nuances based on the contexts I had learned during my studies and conversations, but I could also kind of "feel" the differences, if that doesn't sound too strange. The same thing happens to me when I speak or write in English. There are certain words that have certain meanings for me, and there is an immediate "emotional" response based on the nuance (the implied meaning might cause shock, surprise, excitement, irritation, etc.). I then think that perhaps these emotional chords could be struck when it came to spellwork in different languages.
Again, I thank you both for your responses!
Sincerely,
Sima [司马]
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Originally posted by monsno_leedra View PostI try to learn proper names and such but as far as being proficient in a foreign language for me it's a no go. It's like Hecate / Hekate in Greek has no formal H sound so Hecate / Hekate has no H but an ECK sound, so Eck-Ah-Tey. To me that just seems proper sort of like learning the proper cartouche for the Egyptian gods / goddesses I call upon vice just using their names.
I recall I was taking college Spanish while I was stationed in Spain and just happened to notice the class staring at me. Unknowingly I had started in Spanish, couldn't remember the correct Spanish for the word and inserted French a couple of times or Japanese a few other times. My instructor answered me back saying she recognized when I crossed to French and could follow as she also spoke French but the Japanese just threw her. Yet it never registered I switched only that I knew I wasn't speaking English and used the word or words for what I was trying to say.
司马 (Sima)
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Supporter
- Oct 2010
- 3656
- Shamanist Witch with heady Celtic notes and a faint wiccan bouquet
- female
- North East England
Re: Linguistics and the Craft
Originally posted by monsno_leedra View PostI recall I was taking college Spanish while I was stationed in Spain and just happened to notice the class staring at me. Unknowingly I had started in Spanish, couldn't remember the correct Spanish for the word and inserted French a couple of times or Japanese a few other times. My instructor answered me back saying she recognized when I crossed to French and could follow as she also spoke French but the Japanese just threw her. Yet it never registered I switched only that I knew I wasn't speaking English and used the word or words for what I was trying to say.
Sorry.. that was totally off topic.
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Simatong: I wrote in Japanese in your linguistic pagan thread.. 'done some' doesn't come close. I'm 1 year and 8 months into my third battle with the lan guage and it's serious study! I even run a local Japanese conversation group in my hometown! I'm totally up for having a little chat with you in the fine language if you want. I'm only intermediate though, so be gentle with me! ^^夕方に急なにわか雨は「夕立」と呼ばれるなら、なぜ朝ににわか雨は「朝立ち」と呼ばれないの? ^^If a sudden rain shower in the evening is referred to as an 'evening stand', then why isn't a shower in the morning called 'morning stand'?
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Re: Linguistics and the Craft
Originally posted by Jembru View PostI used to do that when I was studying German!! ^^ I very occasionally still throw in a German word in my Japanese, because there are still a few things I can say in German but not in Japanese, and I don't realise so use the German. Like I don't know how to say 'ventriliquist' in Japanese, while it was one of the first German words I learnt (yeah, thanks for the helpful vocab Deutsche Welle! I'd never have survives 4 months in Augsburg without this vital word), so I could throw that in without even caring that it sounds NOTHING like a Japanese word. When I was studying German.. oh man.. I used so much Japanese. Especially in shops and bars, because I'd learnt survival Japanese while I lived in Japan. So in Germany, I just automatically fell back on that. The best was probably when I was getting flustered in the supermarket trying to ask for a carrierbag in Japanese.
Sorry.. that was totally off topic.
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Simatong: I wrote in Japanese in your linguistic pagan thread.. 'done some' doesn't come close. I'm 1 year and 8 months into my third battle with the lan guage and it's serious study! I even run a local Japanese conversation group in my hometown! I'm totally up for having a little chat with you in the fine language if you want. I'm only intermediate though, so be gentle with me! ^^
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Supporter
- Oct 2010
- 3656
- Shamanist Witch with heady Celtic notes and a faint wiccan bouquet
- female
- North East England
Re: Linguistics and the Craft
I just click on 'settings' at the top, and it shows me all the posts I've contributed to, that have had replies. Other than that, I don't actually know how. Oh one thing though: I'm at work so can't currently write in Japanese text (google cloud is only letting me use hiragana for some reason). I can type in Japanese on my phone, but it is such a slow process. I only use that for replying to text messages, or if I just need to write single words in an otherwise English post.夕方に急なにわか雨は「夕立」と呼ばれるなら、なぜ朝ににわか雨は「朝立ち」と呼ばれないの? ^^If a sudden rain shower in the evening is referred to as an 'evening stand', then why isn't a shower in the morning called 'morning stand'?
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Re: Linguistics and the Craft
TL;DR
But I like using words in different languages sometimes. They're pretty and I feel more mystical :PThorSon's milkshake brings all the PF girls to the yard - Volcaniclastic
RIP
I have never been across the way
Seen the desert and the birds
You cut your hair short
Like a shush to an insult
The world had been yelling
Since the day you were born
Revolting with anger
While it smiled like it was cute
That everything was shit.
- J. Wylder
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Re: Linguistics and the Craft
I found an Old Norse app!ThorSon's milkshake brings all the PF girls to the yard - Volcaniclastic
RIP
I have never been across the way
Seen the desert and the birds
You cut your hair short
Like a shush to an insult
The world had been yelling
Since the day you were born
Revolting with anger
While it smiled like it was cute
That everything was shit.
- J. Wylder
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Supporter
- Oct 2010
- 3656
- Shamanist Witch with heady Celtic notes and a faint wiccan bouquet
- female
- North East England
Re: Linguistics and the Craft
Originally posted by Heka View PostI found an Old Norse app!夕方に急なにわか雨は「夕立」と呼ばれるなら、なぜ朝ににわか雨は「朝立ち」と呼ばれないの? ^^If a sudden rain shower in the evening is referred to as an 'evening stand', then why isn't a shower in the morning called 'morning stand'?
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Thane
- Mar 2013
- 896
- Celtic/Germanic Polytheism
- Ontario, Canada.
- Come join the murder, Come fly with black, We'll give you freedom, From the human trap.
Re: Linguistics and the Craft
I've got a daily Asatru app. It gives one quote from the edda and havamal daily and a different rune and its meaning everyday. It gives me something to think about when I drink coffee in the morning.White and Red 'till I'm cold and dead.
sigpicIn Days of yore,
From Britain's shore
Wolfe the dauntless hero came
And planted firm Britannia's flag
On Canada's fair domain.
Here may it wave,
Our boast, our pride
And joined in love together,
The thistle, shamrock, rose entwined,
The Maple Leaf Forever.
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