Death Sentence- Debate

[volcaniclastic]

Re: Death Sentence- Debate

A rope and the next tree? Fine when it's someone else. But when it's one of your own or you yourself, it's not so clever.

It's true. But if my sister or my brother (for example) brutually raped and beat four women, and when they went to the judge, their sentence was death, well...I'd be sad that they would have to die, but I wouldn't fight it.

Because they would have earned their fate.

[Ophidia]

Re: Death Sentence- Debate

So it's a purely financial concern? What if those who say that the death penalty is actually more expensive than life in prison are right? And what about the innocents who end up being executed, with no chance to reverse the penalty once they're exonerated? It's all very well to say that you only support it on those who deserve it, but guilt is very rarely 100% certain, you have to assume that in any justice system, a certain amount of guilty people will go free and a certain amount of innocent people will end up being punished for crimes they didn't commit.

No, it's not purely financial. Why do we provide thousands of people with food and housing for being bad people? To keep the rest of us safe? Does it make any sense at all?

As it stands, in the US, very few people are actually killed. Given the death penalty, yes. Sitting on death row, yes. Killed? No. The death penalty is only expensive in America, with our appeals system and bloated prison system.

And to those who cry, "You'd feel differently if it was one of your friends/family" - no, I wouldn't. If one of my relatives murdered someone or raped someone or brutalized someone (which various members of my family definitely have - and at least one is sitting in prison for it), they'd be getting what they deserved.

[Medusa]

Re: Death Sentence- Debate

In any case in which an individual is convicted of rape? What happens when someone turns 18 and is convicted of statutory rape with their 16 year old partner?? What about cases where it's just one person's word against anothers? What about all of those teacher/student relationships where the teacher is convicted of rape despite the fact that the student was not only a willing participant but wishes to remain in a relationship with the teacher? What about false accusations resulting in the conviction of innocents?

I oppose the death penalty in all circumstances, not only because I'm fairly sure it's less expensive to just jail them for life than it is to give them due process leading up to execution (not to mention actually being a harsher punishment imo), but because it's impossible to reverse. We all know just how flawed the criminal justice system can be, especially when it comes to such an emotionally charged issue as rape, and the death penalty leaves no room to correct an error once it's been made. IMO it serves no real purpose other than to provide an outlet for the rage and indignation of society and to make people feel better, there's no evidence that it actually serves to discourage crime, it cheapens the concept of justice and even one innocent person being executed is too high a price to pay.

I think if a person is raped as in FORCED TO HAVE SEX, then death to the rapist. Yup.

[Auseklis]

I agree with the death penalty for violent rape with DNA abd/or strong witness proof.

[Aeran]

Re: Death Sentence- Debate

I think if a person is raped as in FORCED TO HAVE SEX, then death to the rapist. Yup.

Except nothing is that black and white. Take this case, for example:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2355655/Astria-Berwick-Woman-jailed-lying-police-taxi-driver-sexually-assaulted-cab.html

If the taxi driver hadn't been lucky enough to record the events, then he'd quite likely have been convicted of rape and assault. If these events had taken place slightly differently under your proposed system, an entirely innocent man would be sentenced to death because a woman didn't want to pay her taxi fare. Is that a reasonable price to pay just to satisfy people's thirst for vengeance against rapists? Are the lives of innocents worth so little that they're a reasonable price for the lives of the guilty?

1 rope and the next tree...doesn't seem to be more expensive than life in prison.

Yeah, mob justice, vigilantism. That's exactly what we need more of. After all, it worked so well for all of those black men who were accused of raping white women and lynched in the American South.

[Quetzal]

Re: Death Sentence- Debate

This thread seems to consist of one or two people making reasonable arguments against the death penalty, backed up lots of evidence of why it's a bad idea. And then lots more people ignoring them and just saying "derp, kill all teh baddies!"

It's just never a good idea. With a capital punishment system, innocent people are always going to be executed, regardless of what level of evidence is needed to convict (the evidence doesn't always point to the right person, even with all today's technology). And I don't think a posthumous pardon will be much comfort to those innocents, or their families.

[Medusa]

Re: Death Sentence- Debate

Except nothing is that black and white. Take this case, for example:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2355655/Astria-Berwick-Woman-jailed-lying-police-taxi-driver-sexually-assaulted-cab.html

If the taxi driver hadn't been lucky enough to record the events, then he'd quite likely have been convicted of rape and assault. If these events had taken place slightly differently under your proposed system, an entirely innocent man would be sentenced to death because a woman didn't want to pay her taxi fare. Is that a reasonable price to pay just to satisfy people's thirst for vengeance against rapists? Are the lives of innocents worth so little that they're a reasonable price for the lives of the guilty?



Yeah, mob justice, vigilantism. That's exactly what we need more of. After all, it worked so well for all of those black men who were accused of raping white women and lynched in the American South.

Yeah, I remember that case. But if a person is FORCED TO HAVE SEX the rapist should die. (I am not referring to anything other than actual cases of rape.)

A rapist is a person who rapes. That is the person I am talking about. My rapists should die. Tell me they shouldn't. Let me hear your case for them.

[Tylluan Penry]

Re: Death Sentence- Debate

I can't make a case for your rapists, Medusa. I wouldn't try.

I can however make a case for the person who did away with my much loved aunt. We knew who it was within the family. Nobody spoke up. Should they have done? Should she have been executed?

There are many things I think should have happened - I think some sort of justice should have been done. But execution?

No. No. And no.

Because execution would not have brought her back. The death penalty/prison/whatever did not deter the perpetrator.
And because execution doesn't just get rid of bad people. It damages good people too.

And personally, I don't want that.

[Medusa]

Re: Death Sentence- Debate

I can't make a case for your rapists, Medusa. I wouldn't try.

I can however make a case for the person who did away with my much loved aunt. We knew who it was within the family. Nobody spoke up. Should they have done? Should she have been executed?

There are many things I think should have happened - I think some sort of justice should have been done. But execution?

No. No. And no.

Because execution would not have brought her back. The death penalty/prison/whatever did not deter the perpetrator.
And because execution doesn't just get rid of bad people. It damages good people too.

And personally, I don't want that.

I can respect that. But I think something like that? I wonder what your aunt would have wanted. But no one will ever know, will they? They can't ask her. And ask yourself why? Well. They can ask me. I was a child then. And something was killed in me before I was ever fully who I am today. And I say death to them. I guess I'm lucky the part of me that lives can make this decision. And maybe this decision is their doing as well? I am a Satanist for one good reason. And this one is it. I have harsh beliefs.

[Tylluan Penry]

Re: Death Sentence- Debate

I can respect that. But I think something like that? I wonder what your aunt would have wanted. But no one will ever know, will they? They can't ask her. And ask yourself why? Well. They can ask me. I was a child then. And something was killed in me before I was ever fully who I am today. And I say death to them. I guess I'm lucky the part of me that lives can make this decision. And maybe this decision is their doing as well? I am a Satanist for one good reason. And this one is it. I have harsh beliefs.

As it happens, I know exactly what my aunt would have done because she loved the person who killed her. She would have forgiven her. She would have covered up if that same person had killed anyone else, too.

Personally I think it was wrong for the family to cover things up the way they did. I think there should have been some punishment. But I still don't believe in the death penalty.

With regard to your own situation, Medusa, I respect how you feel and why you feel the way you do. I'm assuming (and please put me right if I'm wrong) that your attackers were never caught. And if that's so, I hope that one day, they get a conscience, one day they realise what they did (some do.) Because if they do, they are going to have to live with hell on earth every day of their lives.

But I'm sorry if this conversation has evoked terrible memories for you. Believe me, that's not what I intended.
Hugs

[Aeran]

Re: Death Sentence- Debate

Yeah, I remember that case. But if a person is FORCED TO HAVE SEX the rapist should die. (I am not referring to anything other than actual cases of rape.)

A rapist is a person who rapes. That is the person I am talking about. My rapists should die. Tell me they shouldn't. Let me hear your case for them.

Nobody is defending actual rapists, just pointing out that the reality of the criminal justice system is that innocent people are going to get caught up in it. There's no way to completely filter out the innocent from the guilty, to execute one, you have to be willing to do the same to the other. Is it really worth killing innocent people just so you can also kill rapists?

[Medusa]

Re: Death Sentence- Debate

As it happens, I know exactly what my aunt would have done because she loved the person who killed her. She would have forgiven her. She would have covered up if that same person had killed anyone else, too.

Personally I think it was wrong for the family to cover things up the way they did. I think there should have been some punishment. But I still don't believe in the death penalty.

With regard to your own situation, Medusa, I respect how you feel and why you feel the way you do. I'm assuming (and please put me right if I'm wrong) that your attackers were never caught. And if that's so, I hope that one day, they get a conscience, one day they realise what they did (some do.) Because if they do, they are going to have to live with hell on earth every day of their lives.

But I'm sorry if this conversation has evoked terrible memories for you. Believe me, that's not what I intended.
Hugs

It's all good. The memories are that of a child. I look back at it with detachment now I guess.

Aeran. I get what you are saying. I'm not making any discussion on legal cases here. I'm making a statement of opinion on actual people who rape.

If there is proof, then that person dies. I'm not wavering. And if it sounds harsh you can blame the rapists out there in the world for leaving such hard ass victims alive.