Controversy Over Blood Sacrifice

[Medusa]

Re: Controversy Over Blood Sacrifice

Comeone people what animal sacrifices has to be an issue!! It is very common practice and the fact that people don't have to ask for permission while grazing those animals, they don't ask for permission to slaughter them. We do sacrifices of all kinds and I don't have any problem with that because I also enjoy being in any ceremonial involving animal sacrifice.

I'm assuming you consume or use the animal in question for good use?

[SilentMentalist]

Re: Controversy Over Blood Sacrifice

Completely against it. Life is a highly improbable and beautiful thing. The only time animals should be killed in modern society is when you are killing them for food.

[Briar]

Re: Controversy Over Blood Sacrifice

I am not one to say anything you do in the name of religion is okay. As a woman I should not be tortured just because you chose a god that is a bigot. In fact, I think we should rise up and slay all bigoted gods. Don't ever tell me something is okay just because it is done in the name of some god. Then those planes flying into the world trade center was okay, because these people said god told them to do it.

Having said that, I live by nature, which means I raise 87% of my food (the government keeps tracks for tax purposes). I could not survive eating just vegetables, they take more calories to raise than they give back in the eating. So I raise and butcher my own meat. As soon as it gets cold I have 1 steer and 6 pigs that go under the knife. Like when I garden, I give respect to life when it is here and when I take it. I live with nature and so feel for my garden plants too. Such as I just couldn't let my passionflower vines die. It was a silly, emotional response but dug up the vine and brought it onto the porch to live as long as she wants to. I can do this with my plants because I can feed them some manure tea throughout the winter before I put them back in the ground. With my animals, however, I can't afford to get emotional. I will only have so much feed from the field. If I try to take more animals into winter than what I can feed, I will lose every one of them. I record all the food I harvested, calculate how much I feed to each animal, and then I must, must, MUST slaughter what I can't feed or they will all starve.

This is because as a farmer I try to take over from mother nature. She is not this sweet lady that will feed everyone. In nature most young animals will never live to be a year old. They die of predation, starvation, illness, or parasites. Only 1 in 5 bear cubs will come out of the den next spring to see their second year. This is how nature is. We don't have to like it, she don't give a rat's butt what we think. The strong survive. When I try to take the role of mother nature over I have to do the choosing of what animals live and what must be slaughtered or all the farm animals will suffer. I breed certain traits (such as nice bulls that don't try to kill me) and slaughter those animals that don't carry those traits.

Now, for the most part my butchering is a sacrifice. I am blessed to live the life I do even when I have to do things that are not pleasant. I give thanks to the animal for being in my life, for giving it's life for me and I kill the animal in a much more humane way than if you buy your meat from the store (slaughter houses are horrible). It is a ritual part of my year, the Final Harvest. After this time I finally get to have my winter's rest. One last sacrifice for the year and I have meat in the freezer to have me live until spring. Dying is not my idea of a good way to spend winter so I sacrifice animals so I can live. I look them in the eye and thank them for that sacrifice. I thank the plants that give of themselves for me to live too. They are living beings too that don't truly die until I chew them up and my stomach acid dissolves them. They give a pretty big sacrifice for me to live.

[Tylluan Penry]

Re: Controversy Over Blood Sacrifice

With regard to blood sacrifices my basic view is:
If I want to sacrifice my own blood that's my business.
If you want to sacrifice your own blood that's your business.
If you or I want to sacrifice the blood of another living being - whether or not this involves killing - then there should be a bloody good reason.
And in Penry land, killing something as an offering to a god does not count as a bloody good reason.

[JustMezz]

Re: Controversy over Blood Sacrifice

Sacrificing animals is an intricate part of many belief systems all around the world and I don't think it's something we should automatically discount in a effort to be humane. That comes too close to saying, "Your beliefs are wrong." Often, the sacrificed animal is then butchered and eaten, it's not like it's left to rot. Or sometimes it's left in the wild and feeds the scavengers.

I haven't finished reading this thread but this a very true statement and it does come off the way you described I mean what if you don't practice compassion
or have a disposition to do good there would be no need to banish such practices at all.

Humane
having or showing compassion or benevolence

Benevolence
disposition to do good

[Sondst]

Re: Controversy Over Blood Sacrifice

I believe in not harming none unless necessary. I think this comes from not only my current pagan practice beliefs but back when I was vegan. I eat meat again but sparingly a local. Do I sacrifice? It's unnecessary. If I want to bring something for the gods a bowl of fruit or bread will do.

[Rowanwood]

Re: Controversy Over Blood Sacrifice

I don't add animal killing to worship, but when an animal is killed for food (husband is a hunter, we fish, etc) then that's a ritual. The animal IS being sacrificed for you, even if you just buy it in the store. If you eat meat, you sacrifice animals. It's a fact. It's just a matter if you accept it and give spiritual or religious honor, or if you pretend it isn't happening and therefore you didn't do anything.

I dislike hypocrisy more than anything, so claiming I don't sacrifice animals because I'm not chanting during dinner is, well, silly.

I would be against killing something and wasting it unless it was dying/sick/trying to hurt you because that's just lousy. I'm not keen on even killing bugs unless they are a health hazard.

[DON]

Re: Controversy Over Blood Sacrifice

Interesting topic. Lots of discussion about whether or not people do it, but not a lot about why...

As far as I understand it, the power is in the blood. For a killing to be a bona fide blood ritual sacrifice, the following conditions must be met:

Blood must flow.
Pain must be experienced.


In a modern slaughterhouse, the animal is first stunned with electricity and then a spike is driven through the brain. Once the animal is dead, it is drained of blood.
This doesn't really qualify as a blood sacrifice, and neither is fishing.

Kosher and Halal killings, certainly fulfil the blood requirement but the animal experiences very little pain so they don't even classify.

It's my understanding that pain (and fear) acts to focus energy and can be compared to sex magic rituals where orgasm is used instead for the same end.

If I was to classify every day practices under these criteria then the following would qualify:

Abortion
Some motor vehicle accidents
Some suicides
Torture followed by execution of prisoners (as in "terrorist" executions in the middle east)
War

I suspect these situations merely present opportunities for blood sacrifice, and it requires the intention of an acting party to transform them.

Any old blood black flame, or chosen ones here who can comment?

[Torey]

Re: Controversy Over Blood Sacrifice

As far as I understand it, the power is in the blood. For a killing to be a bona fide blood ritual sacrifice, the following conditions must be met:

Blood must flow.
Pain must be experienced.

This is much how I view a blood sacrifice to my deities, but this is only one interpretation of the meaning of "blood sacrifice".

It's my understanding that pain (and fear) acts to focus energy and can be compared to sex magic rituals where orgasm is used instead for the same end.

Pain and fear can be used in much the same way as orgasmic climax. I do believe that they may require a great deal more control to be effectively harnessed, however.

If I was to classify every day practices under these criteria then the following would qualify:

Abortion
Some motor vehicle accidents
Some suicides
Torture followed by execution of prisoners (as in "terrorist" executions in the middle east)
War

I suspect these situations merely present opportunities for blood sacrifice, and it requires the intention of an acting party to transform them.

Any old blood black flame, or chosen ones here who can comment?

I personally would not consider such happenstance events to be worthy of sacrifice unless you are causing the events yourself. The idea that "any old blood or fear will do" is not actually viable IMHO. There is a great deal more that goes into a proper sacrifice than just circumstantial bloodshed. As you said, it will require intention to transform any bloodshed into a viable sacrifice, but without proper controls in place - I would not use happenstance bloodshed for sacrifice to my deities at all.

[thalassa]

Re: Controversy Over Blood Sacrifice

As far as I understand it, the power is in the blood. For a killing to be a bona fide blood ritual sacrifice, the following conditions must be met:

Blood must flow.
Pain must be experienced.

This has not been my experience.

Blood is potent because its liquid life--adding pain (or at least pain that is not pleasurable) is...well for lack of a better word, its tainting it. It doesn't add any energy to it, it doesn't make it any stronger. Sex, for the same reason is potent...and the fact that outputs a great deal of energy. Death on the other hand...death is only truly powerful when it is brought with compassion, just as life is only truly powerful when it is given with humility. Intentionally causing pain negates compassion, and whatever power one thinks they are gaining from it is illusory.

[Rowanwood]

Re: Controversy Over Blood Sacrifice

I sort of take offense to the idea that the intentional spiritualizing of the death of an animal in fishing/hunting isn't "a sacrifice" because it doesn't involve torture? I'm not really liking the entire line of thinking. What the heck would it benefit me to intentionally cause pain to another creature? If there is unnecessary pain involved for a sacrifice (I'm sure there's pain, I mean I am killing the thing) that pain would have to be mine for it to really mean anything in a true religious sense -- otherwise its just being a psychopath dressed up in religious finery.

Many faiths have blood and pain in their rituals -- even many old Christian sects which flogged themselves, did the old hair shirt, even the idea of giving something up for Lent is a sacrifice of a type involving discomfort. I don't see why a pagan working would require something different.

[Torey]

Re: Controversy Over Blood Sacrifice

I should qualify my own statement, just to be clear that I was not insinuating something that is not the case:

As far as I understand it, the power is in the blood. For a killing to be a bona fide blood ritual sacrifice, the following conditions must be met:

Blood must flow.
Pain must be experienced.

This is much how I view a blood sacrifice to my deities, but this is only one interpretation of the meaning of "blood sacrifice".

Sacrifice to my deities includes only my own pain and my own blood.

I do not personally sacrifice the blood of an animal for my blood offerings as it is not in line with my beliefs - in saying this, I am referring to the deliberate targeting of and killing of an animal specifically for the purpose of sacrifice to my deities.

Hunting, on the other hand, is something that I have done for the vast majority of my life. We hunted for sustenance - but we honoured each and every animal that we killed, as well. While I do not see the hunting of and killing of the animals that we took as sacrifices to the gods, they were sacred nonetheless and served the purpose of feeding myself and my family, for which their sacrifice was acknowledged and honoured.

In regards to pain, the pain (in addition to the blood) that I use within my own sacrifice is part of the arrangement between myself and the Spirit to whom I contribute it.

[Bjorn]

Re: Controversy Over Blood Sacrifice

I sort of take offense to the idea that the intentional spiritualizing of the death of an animal in fishing/hunting isn't "a sacrifice" because it doesn't involve torture? I'm not really liking the entire line of thinking. What the heck would it benefit me to intentionally cause pain to another creature? If there is unnecessary pain involved for a sacrifice (I'm sure there's pain, I mean I am killing the thing) that pain would have to be mine for it to really mean anything in a true religious sense -- otherwise its just being a psychopath dressed up in religious finery.

Many faiths have blood and pain in their rituals -- even many old Christian sects which flogged themselves, did the old hair shirt, even the idea of giving something up for Lent is a sacrifice of a type involving discomfort. I don't see why a pagan working would require something different.

I will preface this by saying that killing an animal and using blood in sacrifice are two entirely different ideas. To me, blood sacrifice comes from either yourself, or from a slaughtered animal that was killed with intent and for a purpose, such as food.

But overall, AGREED. If you're taking a life then you're taking a life and you had ought to be respectful and intentional as you do it. To me, and this is personal philosophy, but unless you have reason to use the meat, hide, bones, innards, and blood of the beast you've killed, then you've killed more for personal pleasure and less for your 'god.' Life is life and the whole point that the blood is sacred in the first place is because of that inherent, respectful understanding. Without it, you're just killing for fun.

P.S. I won't get into the fact that if you serve 'bloodthirsty gods,' that I think you chose them because I don't believe in any of them.

[Rae'ya]

Re: Controversy Over Blood Sacrifice

As far as I understand it, the power is in the blood. For a killing to be a bona fide blood ritual sacrifice, the following conditions must be met:

Blood must flow.
Pain must be experienced.

Do you have a reason for believing that pain must be experienced in order for it to count?

Because if we look at the entire history of sacrifice, pain wasn't always a necessary part of the death. So this generalised statement is certainly not supported by historical and anthropological evidence.

As a person who uses blood in magick and as offerings, who is sworn to a deity of death, who works with bloodthirsty and painthirsty entities, who's job involves killing suffering animals, and who has a very specific and spiritual belief regarding the sacredness of death... I don't agree at all. In my experience, pain is something different... it is certainly profound and powerful in it's own right, and there are deities who relish it, but it's not intrinsically linked with blood and it's not a requirement of a 'bona fide blood ritual sacrifice'.

It's my understanding that pain (and fear) acts to focus energy and can be compared to sex magic rituals where orgasm is used instead for the same end.

Yes, but it depends on the way that you experience fear. Some fear and pain is extremely chaotic and disorientating, which would make it incredibly difficult to harness. On the other hand, any masochist can tell you that some fear and pain, especially when wielded by a skilled hand, can be inherently focused and create some amazing states of consciousness. It's not one of those things that is consistent across the board. The focusing potential of fear and pain depends largely on the entity experiencing the fear or pain, the entity causing the fear or pain, and the entity gathering it. In the case of self-inflicted pain, you are in control of all three factors. In the case of sacrificing something else... well that's much more complex.

And either way, none of this is relevant to blood sacrifice. Because the point of a blood sacrifice is the blood (or the death), not the fear or pain.

[anunitu]

Re: Controversy Over Blood Sacrifice

This is interesting and at the same time bothersome to me. I do eat meat,but cannot separate the fact that something must die for me to eat meat. I killed a mouse that was in a sticky trap once,the person that had trapped it was going to just throw this mouse in the garbage to die from starvation. I was called "unfeeling" and mean when I put the mouse out of its misery. To disregard the pain of a living thing and then chastise the person who takes that pain away by an act that for me was very painful is hard to understand in human behavior.