Controversy Over Blood Sacrifice

[monsno_leedra]

Re: Controversy Over Blood Sacrifice

I am a modern human, living in the 21st century.

I can, and will, judge cultures of the past by my standards, or any other standards I choose.

I realize that this makes me a bad person. Live with it.

There is much in the past that was wrong, just as there is plenty in the present that is wrong (IMHO).

Declaring that the past is off-limits for judgement by those in the present is just silly, and non-binding in my case (actually, in ALL cases). I suggest that all other rational creatures cast off the prohibitions against free thought as well.

I'd disagree. Judging a past culture can only be done within the frame work of its own morality, values, ethics and social and cultural norms. To use modern notions is no different than saying "There's a good American inside just waiting to get out" when looking at any culture today. Compare and contrast is one thing to judge based upon something else simply paints an incorrect value upon it. Especially so given the constant fluidity of any groups ethics and morality as influenced by their times. Historically and anthropologically wise it has caused considerable misinformation and misconception when dealing with archaic or primitive societies and evaluation of them.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Controversy Over Blood Sacrifice

I'd disagree. Judging a past culture can only be done within the frame work of its own morality, values, ethics and social and cultural norms. To use modern notions is no different than saying "There's a good American inside just waiting to get out" when looking at any culture today. Compare and contrast is one thing to judge based upon something else simply paints an incorrect value upon it. Especially so given the constant fluidity of any groups ethics and morality as influenced by their times. Historically and anthropologically wise it has caused considerable misinformation and misconception when dealing with archaic or primitive societies and evaluation of them.

I have no idea what all this means, but feel free to disagree.

It seems to me that, when one watches one's husband being slaughtered, one's children stolen and sold into slavery, and one's self being raped, such a woman would be as terrified and disturbed as would a modern woman - I highly doubt that she would simply shrug and say "Well, Golly. It's my culture..."

Cultures are not sacred. They can be - and are - just as shitty, or as just as good, as the people who make them up.

But whether you agree with me or not, I don't accept any prohibitions in regards to what I can and cannot do in my own brain.

[monsno_leedra]

Re: Controversy Over Blood Sacrifice

I have no idea what all this means, but feel free to disagree.

It seems to me that, when one watches one's husband being slaughtered, one's children stolen and sold into slavery, and one's self being raped, such a woman would be as terrified and disturbed as would a modern woman - I highly doubt that she would simply shrug and say "Well, Golly. It's my culture..."

Cultures are not sacred. They can be - and are - just as shitty, or as just as good, as the people who make them up.

But whether you agree with me or not, I don't accept any prohibitions in regards to what I can and cannot do in my own brain.

Using the other side of that coin that same woman would be enjoying all the perks when it was her people celebrating and sacrificing to her gods / goddesses. Knowing the crops and such would be good, family safe or as close to it as possible given the norms for her cultural / social position and order within it. Even participating in any activities that the woman of her group would utilize against any prisoners or offerings to the gods / goddesses. Raising her own children with the expectations and values / morals of her culture. If one extrapolates to other similar culture's from a given period & location the same general things were going on all around. Yes, there was fear and other emotions on both sides but there was also a cultural norm and expectations.

To me it's not about making the culture sacred it's about seeing the culture for its own time, complexity and values. Understanding the "Why" of a thing and not trying to use current value norms in looking at it. The usual result is either to paint it in a negativity that it doesn't deserve or to paint it in such rosy hue's that it's still a lie and fantasy.

As far as what's in your head and how you think no one has tried to do that. As far as prohibitions your the one placing those when you use current morality and notions to judge or evaluate the past or a differing culture and how / why it works. Heck even when looking at ones own culture and how it evolves or why it evolves in a given direction.

But to each their own

[Gleb]

Re: Controversy Over Blood Sacrifice

It also should be considered, that some animals can be sacrificed after all. For instance - bulls, lambs and other animals that provide no other profit, but pure meat.

The question still remains troublesome. There is the sacred animals thing and the idea that everything in the world is created for the humanity. The two are just like 2 sides of a coin.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Controversy Over Blood Sacrifice

To me it's not about making the culture sacred it's about seeing the culture for its own time, complexity and values. Understanding the "Why" of a thing and not trying to use current value norms in looking at it. The usual result is either to paint it in a negativity that it doesn't deserve or to paint it in such rosy hue's that it's still a lie and fantasy.

I know why Nazis killed Jews. I still condemn it. One can, and should, understand things - even things one does not agree with.

As far as prohibitions your the one placing those when you use current morality and notions to judge or evaluate the past or a differing culture and how / why it works. Heck even when looking at ones own culture and how it evolves or why it evolves in a given direction.

I have no idea at all how this causes me to stop somebody from thinking - or even acting. You're really reaching here...

[Louisvillian]

Re: Controversy Over Blood Sacrifice

Sacrifice has to do with giving up something important.

Not necessarily. That's a connotation that's relatively modern; not to say that it's inaccurate, because words and meanings do change. But it's not what is meant when it comes to animal and blood sacrifice in, say, ancient European paganism. The root term means "sacred", and to sacrifice something to make it sacred. A burnt offering of a slaughtered animal is a sacrifice not because you are giving up something important, but because the animal is dedicated to the gods prior to being offered.

systematically killing people is not something good for anyone.

Clearly, the Aztec priests would disagree. Are you saying that your culture, your values, and your religion are more true than theirs?

[DON]

Re: Controversy Over Blood Sacrifice

Sacrifice has to do with giving up something important. (Sacrificing your life to save anothers. See? Giving up something important for the good of someone else)

If you just go out and kill any old rat or what have you, that is not a sacrifice because that rat's life was not important to you. Something important would be cutting off the hair you adore, throwing a necklace you love into the river...

Yes I agree. This is why an animal or human must be pure and unblemished. A worshipper is a servant to a master. Offering a blemished sacrifice is like a waiter serving a patron a meal and spitting in their food.

The ritual of sacrifice is all about power. Whether or not the ritual harnesses or focusses power I really don't know. I do know that following instructions from the master exercises their power over you. By complying with the request, the servant is rewarded by the master. The greater the sacrifice, the more the servant displays their devotion, or submission to the will of who they serve.

If you consider blood sacrifices, you can see the parallels here, different types of animals and people have different effects.

I'm not familiar with the practice of using donated blood. I doubt it would have any more effect than using anything else freely given, like milk. Again, I'm not too sure about self sacrificing either. Unless it is a large amount that puts your life at risk. Again it comes back to the question of how much is being given up - there has to be a price and the higher that price, the greater the reward.

[monsno_leedra]

Re: Controversy Over Blood Sacrifice

I know why Nazis killed Jews. I still condemn it. One can, and should, understand things - even things one does not agree with.

I very much agree. I may not agree with something done in the past but it makes it so much easier to understand or comprehend when I know the why of it. Even if that "Why" seems highly illogical to my present ethics, morality, etc.

I have no idea at all how this causes me to stop somebody from thinking - or even acting. You're really reaching here...

That was written in response to your earlier statement

But whether you agree with me or not, I don't accept any prohibitions in regards to what I can and cannot do in my own brain.

The prohibitions are self imposed and placed upon yourself in how you use them. Not that you project or influence them upon another or others. Though to some degree even projecting or influencing is a given for any response will be colored by those same self imposed prohibitions or limitations.

Though I think I shall bow out of this conversation as it seems we are derailing this thread by continuing our discussion. Will be glad to continue it in a new thread if you desired to do so.

[DON]

Re: Controversy Over Blood Sacrifice

Do you have a reason for believing that pain must be experienced in order for it to count?

Because if we look at the entire history of sacrifice, pain wasn't always a necessary part of the death. So this generalised statement is certainly not supported by historical and anthropological evidence.

As a person who uses blood in magick and as offerings, who is sworn to a deity of death, who works with bloodthirsty and painthirsty entities, who's job involves killing suffering animals, and who has a very specific and spiritual belief regarding the sacredness of death... I don't agree at all. In my experience, pain is something different... it is certainly profound and powerful in it's own right, and there are deities who relish it, but it's not intrinsically linked with blood and it's not a requirement of a 'bona fide blood ritual sacrifice'...

Yes I think you're right. It very much depends on the entity to which you are sacrificing. Only in some blood sacrifices is pain and fear a prerequisite. From memory, Jewish and Hindu blood sacrifices do not require pain or fear at all, just the spilling of blood, and resulting death of the specified sacrifice.

[Ektor]

Re: Controversy Over Blood Sacrifice

Clearly, the Aztec priests would disagree. Are you saying that your culture, your values, and your religion are more true than theirs?

That's absurdely fallacious. No, I'm saying it's something condemnable and really, really fucking bad to kill defenseless, enslaved, violently captured human being. I don't care what justification is given. It's like African tribes who mutilate women's clitoris, or blood feuds in Afghanistan, or corrective rape where I live. It's all part of our culture, but it's every bit as fucked up as something could be.
As a very good friend of mine once told me "Culture is not only pretty things we'll leave for archeologists 1000 years in the future; culture is every way of thinking, every moral, every understanding the world and acting on it". You're not excused to do something brutal because that's the way everyone around you do things. This mentality is exactly what allowed Stalin and Hitler to do their things, it's the same motivation that led to Europeans massacring Native Americans, basically, all genocides and great brutalities commited in History are justified by culture/religion/defense of values. It's a bad excuse.

[Varga]

Re: Controversy Over Blood Sacrifice

If you're a hunter and kill (for example) a deer, honor gods when you butcher it, and show respect to animals spirit by using all the parts of it - go ahead. But if you're planning to kill an anilmal just for the sacrifice, or for boosting your magic... Well that's your decision, but i wouldn't do such a thing. If i ever need blood in my magic, (haven't needed it yet), i would use my own blood.

[Gleb]

Re: Controversy Over Blood Sacrifice

I wouldn't even hunt animals - they're supposed to be part of nature, in my opinion. There are animals which are determined as domestic ones. I have no problem with using one of these. But like I wrote earlier - as long as I can benefit from it in another way - I will. I prefer fruit and vegetables and drinks as offerings/sacrifices.

[satanic witch]

Re: Controversy Over Blood Sacrifice

If u are a hunter honor the gods and its spirit by using all parts of said animal as well leave an offering and suggest ur kills blood. If you are using it in ritual or magic I'd suggest using your own

[Ouranos Ouroboros]

Re: Controversy Over Blood Sacrifice

What are your opinions about blood sacrifice and animal sacrifice? Taken from this thread and moved here in an effort not to derail the thread. I would like to hear what everyone's opinions are on the matter as well as justifications for or against. I made the thread in ceremonies and practices but I fully expect for this to be more of a debate. If a mod wishes to move the pertinent posts from the other thread they may but it's probably not necessary.

*I forgot to capitalize the O in the title. Could someone fix that please?

Great topic.

I think it's wrong to sacrifice another being or subject another being to harm that she/he/it is unwilling to endure. That's why I'm vegan and why I work to repair and protect the environment. I think autosacrifice is a matter of choice and perfectly fine, although I don't feel the need to practice it myself.

[warwulf]

Re: Controversy Over Blood Sacrifice

Yes I think you're right. It very much depends on the entity to which you are sacrificing. Only in some blood sacrifices is pain and fear a prerequisite. From memory, Jewish and Hindu blood sacrifices do not require pain or fear at all, just the spilling of blood, and resulting death of the specified sacrifice.

The jewish "faith" strives only if the sacrifice is 'kosher'. The 'K' coming from the Hebrew Kev, meaning 'pain, suffering, anguish' so the more the animal or human suffers, the more holy it is for the jew. Examine kosher slaughter videos if you have the stomach and research jewish child sacrifices in Europe. Even as late as 2004, in Venezuela, 45 Rabbis were arrested for the ritualistic murder of blonde, blue-eyed children when they were busted filming the rape and sodomization, the slitting of the throat and the gathering of the childs blood for matzo.
Blood of another animal or human should only be implemented if the gain to ones own psyche and KA is worth it. To take a life needlessly is the ultimate error in egotistical tomfoolery.