Controversy Over Blood Sacrifice

[Auseklis]

Re: Controversy over Blood Sacrifice

In the Sagas, Odin took entire armies as his sacrifice. So, if any deity wants human sacrifices, do you really think he/she won't get them?

That is what I think Rick... deities don't ask for a sacrifice hoping they get what they ask they just take what they need. The whole idea of offering up a sacrifice is like a form of submission. I personally don't mind my personal sacrifice to myself in life but I don't see why a deity needs a human to offer up anything to them other than seeing if they can make them submit.

[Unus Mundus]

Re: Controversy over Blood Sacrifice

Yes but I think the deity then has the option to refuse the offering and not give their aid in return.

You can offer me a tin can, but that doesn't mean I have to take it.

Indeed, a lot of times a sacrifice is both a "thanks for being there!" and a "please help me!" all wrapped into one. In this way, you have to find that balance between "what can I give up, and how badly do I need the deity's help?"

At least that is how classical "sacrifices" are portrayed often.

[Rick]

Re: Controversy over Blood Sacrifice

That is what I think Rick... deities don't ask for a sacrifice hoping they get what they ask they just take what they need. The whole idea of offering up a sacrifice is like a form of submission. I personally don't mind my personal sacrifice to myself in life but I don't see why a deity needs a human to offer up anything to them other than seeing if they can make them submit.

One must submit self to Self to receive the gifts of the gods. The rest is window dressing.

[Auseklis]

Re: Controversy over Blood Sacrifice

One must submit self to Self to receive the gifts of the gods. The rest is window dressing.

That is an interesting belief. I have not experienced this myself but I am sure some have.

[Gleb]

Re: Controversy over Blood Sacrifice

I have read some answeres here, and I think that there is a little confusion.
When we talk about sacrafice, we usually mean an animal's death offer.
But I understand the word as giving something that belongs to me to another being, or for another purpose.
It doesn't have to be a living beiing. It can be anything except meat- vegetables, fruit, milk-products and different bakery stuff.
For all of people who are arguing about human and animal lives-
It's kinda wierd. Why does it have to be a life? As Quetzal wrote- "Your Gods aren't the animal's Gods."

I'll give an example:
The Kemetic Goddess Sehmet is the Goddess of war. That's why people would like to give her meat and meat.
But she is also the Goddess of healing, so instead of giving a meat and blood, people also can give her different herbs- don't you think?

[monsno_leedra]

Re: Controversy over Blood Sacrifice

,,I'll give an example:
The Kemetic Goddess Sehmet is the Goddess of war. That's why people would like to give her meat and meat.
But she is also the Goddess of healing, so instead of giving a meat and blood, people also can give her different herbs- don't you think?

To use your example i'd always though people gave an offering of the essence of food to the Kemetic gods / goddesses as food (meat or plant) was of such importance that humanity ate the physical food while the gods / goddesses got the essence of it. Then figure in many ways it was feast or famine depending upon the time of year and how well the growing season went which is why the first born got the greatest portion. Yet many times the first born also died because of rot and decay to be found in the grains and such that wasn't found near the bottom of the barrel.

I know for me when I make offerings to Bastet, Pahket, Mafdet or Sekor it is always the essence of the food and its spirit or energy that is made as an offering to them. The only thing that is not an essence thing is water which to me ties back into the fertility / fecundity of the land issues and water being life to the desert or Nile valley.

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That is what I think Rick... deities don't ask for a sacrifice hoping they get what they ask they just take what they need. The whole idea of offering up a sacrifice is like a form of submission. I personally don't mind my personal sacrifice to myself in life but I don't see why a deity needs a human to offer up anything to them other than seeing if they can make them submit.

I personally think that depends upon the sphere of influence of the deity. A god of war / pestilence etc can take what they demand as an offering via battle or the famine that often follows such. Yet other gods / goddesses you'd never hear or see a suggestion they might make or take such an offering. Consider Demeter and leaving the earth barren while she searches for Persephone many die but its not a sacrifice to the goddess nor does any of her lore I am aware of demand such. With the exception of one branch of lore Artemis does not get offerings of that sort but girls mostly transitioning into adulthood offered their childhood things to her for safe passage, women who were expecting made offerings and sacrifice to her for a safe birth. Though I suppose one could say Artemis demanded life via the number of women who died in childbirth.

Not sure i'd agree that making a sacrifice is a form of submission as much as it is of getting ride of the excess via sacred ceremony as a remembrance to times of less and hardship. Figure many things had to be sacrificed at the start of fall due to the inability to keep during the long winters, especially depending upon where one lived. Even today many make sacrifices but call it selling off of herds and crops to avoid storage costs. Then the following year investing back into them or a few years later when it is easier for them to do so.

[Gleb]

Re: Controversy over Blood Sacrifice

So you're saying that sacraficing also depends and the seasons of the year, and the Gods' nature?
But like animals, plants still keep existing, even if the plants themselves are different.
Different holidays were celebrated in different times, and people used different foods an offer.
Like meat and non-meat type of food.
So I am not completely out of options.

[monsno_leedra]

Re: Controversy over Blood Sacrifice

General question on the current topic: Why would deities that once required human sacrifice change to animal sacrifice along with the laws of modern times? Would deities care about human created law and send out telepathic messages for a change in their sacrifice needs?

I think that it depends upon the deity in question and the sphere they hold sway over. Artemis is one where human sacrifice was changed to blooding of the altar as an acceptable change. Then of course the lore and legend changes to match the change as in for Artemis its the story of Orestes and Igphenyia who rescues the cult image from barbarian lands and brings it back to Greece (or the whole of the Med depending upon how the legend goes). Yet the position of the Rex Nemorensis who kills to take the mantle of high priest is also part of the Orestes story and suggests the punishment for such life taking knowing your own life will be so taken as the Rex. Just a disclaimer in that the story of the Rex is identified to Diana or Nemorensis but that period is also suggested as being due to conflating with the Artemis story and Igphenyia and the cult image.

So on one hand Artemis tells her high priestess to take the image and flee the violation that is being done to it via full human sacrifice. Yet the offering of blood continues on at the sites influenced by that story and mythology. Yet from a Greek point of view it also suggests the uncivilized barbarian influence being civilized and brought into the civilized notion of Hellenic society at the commands of the Goddess herself. Then carried through the civilized lands seeding sacred places along with it due to the strength of the story and the characters who become larger than life.

Yet human and animal sacrifice occurred at the same time for Artemis. Yet the animal sacrifice was directed more at fertility / fecundity in regards to Artemis and often was the entire animal not just parts of it. Then I suppose one might go a bit further where sacrifice became via votive or effigy than physical creature given cost and such. Votive offerings from many temples, sanctuaries and shrines suggest votive offerings pertained to physical molded body parts that were ill to masks, animals, body parts, weapons & Shields, things made from ceramic, metal, probably wood or stone. Then the layering of the deposits suggest the old were simply trodden over or tossed into a chasm, cavern or pit to be burnt or buried by time. So animal offerings were significant events that occurred once a year or so many years but not every day, week, month or such as a rule or during special offerings like before battle or feats to be undertaken and guidance from the gods / goddesses sought.

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So you're saying that sacraficing also depends and the seasons of the year, and the Gods' nature?
But like animals, plants still keep existing, even if the plants themselves are different.
Different holidays were celebrated in different times, and people used different foods an offer.
Like meat and non-meat type of food.
So I am not completely out of options.

That's my understanding from my readings and such. It's like the festival of Bastet is recorded with many offerings via celebration and such but I've found nothing that says things were sacrificed to her during that festival. Yet the festival also appears to be held only so many years not annually due to the very size and numbers recorded attending it. I suppose in many ways it's like the 3 seasons of the Nile and its fertility / fecundity relationship to the land, dry and murky swamps, overflow and refertialezation of the land then the growing season itself.

Honey was one thing I see listed a lot then figure honey never goes bad so in its own way it is eternal like the gods / goddesses it was offered to.

[Kahlenda]

Re: Controversy over Blood Sacrifice

Your right I don't live in a third world county but supposedly a western or 1st world country. Yet I see families who supplement their diets heavily with hunting or other meats whether it be fish, fowl or such and know that is the majority of their daily meals. Places where the take home pay is so low they qualify some assistance but seldom is it enough so the food stuffs they do get are pretty non nutritional in most instances.

Sorry Just another Aside Here, personally i think Hunting Is comleatly different to a sacrifice.

Like i said i dont sacrifice but i do sometimes hunt. and while i do treat the hunted animal with spiritual respect. i don't see the Rabbit (sometimes duck mmmmmm duck) as a sacrifice of any sort

[monsno_leedra]

Re: Controversy over Blood Sacrifice

Sorry Just another Aside Here, personally i think Hunting Is comleatly different to a sacrifice.

Like i said i dont sacrifice but i do sometimes hunt. and while i do treat the hunted animal with spiritual respect. i don't see the Rabbit (sometimes duck mmmmmm duck) as a sacrifice of any sort

But do you honor it for it's sacrifice?

Going off topic but I do think that is where a lot of the male mysteries once came into play. The blooding ceremonies which tied us to the spirit of that we killed but also served to remind us of the tapestry of life and the union of all living things. The dance and walk that once tied us to the prey we tracked or sought out and the game between hunter and hunted unfolded. The dance of the hunt but also the dance of rememberance and honoring where we wore the skins and horns of the hunt and told stories around the campfires and such. It all made sacrifice and respect so much more than it is many times today in my opinion.

[Kahlenda]

Re: Controversy over Blood Sacrifice

But do you honor it for it's sacrifice?

Going off topic but I do think that is where a lot of the male mysteries once came into play. The blooding ceremonies which tied us to the spirit of that we killed but also served to remind us of the tapestry of life and the union of all living things. The dance and walk that once tied us to the prey we tracked or sought out and the game between hunter and hunted unfolded. The dance of the hunt but also the dance of rememberance and honoring where we wore the skins and horns of the hunt and told stories around the campfires and such. It all made sacrifice and respect so much more than it is many times today in my opinion.

Yeah i do, i thank the spirit for allowing my its body and the food and so on, but i see that as the animal commiting the sacrifice not myself.

and so i guess what your saying is that in ancient times the whole day, from hunting the animal to the end of the night having eaten it and celebrated its spirit. was one great big sacrificial event.

[monsno_leedra]

Re: Controversy over Blood Sacrifice

Yeah i do, i thank the spirit for allowing my its body and the food and so on, but i see that as the animal commiting the sacrifice not myself.

and so i guess what your saying is that in ancient times the whole day, from hunting the animal to the end of the night having eaten it and celebrated its spirit. was one great big sacrificial event.

In many ways I think it was. Figure things like Buffalo hunts on the plains you'd have cleansing rituals, ceremonies and dances, etc the night before the hunt as one tries to connect to the spirit of the creatures, to become one with it so you know it and can find it. Many times rights of passage associated with the hunt as well as seeking power animals, totems, etc.

[Chris the Bold]

Re: Controversy over Blood Sacrifice

In many ways I think it was. Figure things like Buffalo hunts on the plains you'd have cleansing rituals, ceremonies and dances, etc the night before the hunt as one tries to connect to the spirit of the creatures, to become one with it so you know it and can find it. Many times rights of passage associated with the hunt as well as seeking power animals, totems, etc.

I've never really thought of hunting as sacrifice. When I'm out I'll often find a log, carve a rune or two on it, and offer a part of my kill to Ullr and Skadi (meat, blood, or a trophy such as an antler or tail). I've always thought of it as an offering, sharing the essence of my kill with the gods. But I suppose that really is a sacrifice isn't it? I've taken the life of a being, honored the beast's spirit, and offered a part to my gods. Thank you for giving me a new perspective.

Also, I like what you said about the rituals and ceremonies. My friends and I often don't sleep before a hunt, but rather stay up by the fire and prepare our selves for the morning. Hunting is still a sort of rite where I am from.

And to keep with the topic of the thread. I suppose I'm cool with blood/animal sacrifice. I think the gods approve of my offering a part of my kill to them as I like to think they keep my eyes sharp and my aim true. Oaths are also sacred to me and what is more binding than a blood oath to one's gods?

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Controversy over Blood Sacrifice

What is apt to be a grossly unpopular opinion:

The gods living in my head do not want blood.

If they did, I'd have a psychiatrist drive them out.

[Kahlenda]

Re: Controversy over Blood Sacrifice

In many ways I think it was. Figure things like Buffalo hunts on the plains you'd have cleansing rituals, ceremonies and dances, etc the night before the hunt as one tries to connect to the spirit of the creatures, to become one with it so you know it and can find it. Many times rights of passage associated with the hunt as well as seeking power animals, totems, etc.

True but i still think a hunt is compleatly different from a sacrifice because......

and offer a part of my kill to Ullr and Skadi (meat, blood, or a trophy such as an antler or tail). I've always thought of it as an offering, sharing the essence of my kill with the gods.

Its exactly that an offering sharing a piece of your kill with the gods and the forest/woods/moor/ect. as a thanks for letting you catch the animal. and the sacrifice of the animal is thanked by showing it respect and not killing for the fun of it.

and thats the crux of it. a hunt you go out to get food you kill the animal because you need to eat (i know we don't NEED to anymore but i cant think of a better way to say this) where as a sacrifice you are killing the animal to 'honour' the gods not because you need to eat. and you present the gods with an offering of the animals meat/blood/body parts to ask for say fertile lands or animals or what ever the sacrifice is for.

What is apt to be a grossly unpopular opinion:

The gods living in my head do not want blood.

If they did, I'd have a psychiatrist drive them out.

Ill agree to that one