Animal Testing

[Denarius]

Re: Animal Testing

And in the mean time?

We carry on as we have been doing so far and hope for the best. The only way to phase out animal testing is to come up with a viable alternative. So far two have come up in this thread, biological engineering and computer simulation. Neither of which are advanced enough to be viable as of yet.

If there was a solution to the problem of animal testing that uses currently existing technology and methods, then a thousand people would think of it before I even start putting two and two together.

[thalassa]

Re: Animal Testing

If there was a solution to the problem of animal testing that uses currently existing technology and methods, then a thousand people would think of it before I even start putting two and two together.

I don't disagree that, when technology is sufficiently advanced, that we shouldn't be using a better model. I'm pretty sure that most people can agree there, which ever side of the debate they may be on. The main problem I see with creating human-ish biological subjects is that I'm not sure how you would create a human subject to test something on that isn't human--its not just a matter of testing on flesh, but on complete systems and how complete sympoms function...including the brain. How do you get human brain function as part of a human body without creating a human being?

I'm more curious about what people think we should be doing in the meantime. Particularly since, to get to either situation would really require quite a bit of "animal testing" (which is a pretty ambiguous term when you think about it anyhow!). We are just now starting to understand a number of genetic, cellular and developmental processes.

[Lilium of the Valley]

Re: Animal Testing

About this whole 'creating humans' ... I'm wondering (and this may sound cheesy), would they not have emotions? would they not feel like they wan't to have a purpose?! I'm kind of picturing it like in those movies where the robot suddenly has feelings and wants to live and love etc. Or like Pinocchio who wants to be a real boy. (emphasis on real) maybe i'm being too emotional on this. But seriously if they were to be human beings with everything that comes with it. I kinda feel sad looking at them like lifeless test objects.
<-- is being a sensitive anne lol

[Medusa]

Re: Animal Testing

I realize some of people are against medical testing. But I wonder if they realize how much they personally benefit from it and would give it up. Really give up all benefits of it. We all have bloody hands. Even those of us who are adamantly against it. No matter how you want to spin in, rationalize it, your hands are bloody. And your life is much more beneficial because of it.

Unless of course you are one of the few who lives off the grid. Then you are probably just killing animals for your own benefit anyways.

[Lilium of the Valley]

Re: Animal Testing

I realize some of people are against medical testing. But I wonder if they realize how much they personally benefit from it and would give it up. Really give up all benefits of it. We all have bloody hands. Even those of us who are adamantly against it. No matter how you want to spin in, rationalize it, your hands are bloody. And your life is much more beneficial because of it.

Unless of course you are one of the few who lives off the grid. Then you are probably just killing animals for your own benefit anyways.

I agree that medical testing has it's benefits. I also believe that it should continue, simply to keep people healthy and to help save lives. But some things that science is trying to achieve ("growing humans in vats" for example) oversteps a boundary. I don't care how it is twisted or viewed, or how much humans want to become immortal. We do not have the right to play God.

[Denarius]

Re: Animal Testing

We do not have the right to play God.

Says who? There have been people who have said science is overstepping it's bounds since time immemorial, and we've gleefully played god despite their protests just as long.

We've walked on the moon, split the atom (The word literally means unsplittable,) transplanted hearts, created amino acids from chemicals, created artificial lightning, turned lead into gold, healed the sick, and just generally been very clever.

Why stop now?

[Lilium of the Valley]

Re: Animal Testing

Says who? There have been people who have said science is overstepping it's bounds since time immemorial, and we've gleefully played god despite their protests just as long.

We've walked on the moon, split the atom (The word literally means unsplittable,) transplanted hearts, created amino acids from chemicals, created artificial lightning, turned lead into gold, healed the sick, and just generally been very clever.

Why stop now?

Well maybe I should have added "IMO"...I just think some things overstep boundaries, that I'd personally rather not overstep. With power comes great responsibility and often it seems humanity is not ready to handle the responsibility and the consequences that come from certain "scientific break throughs". Just look at all the things that were discovered in science to create the atomic bomb and everything that came after it......Are humans really handling this "thing" well?! And there are so many other examples. It's a blessing and a curse, that's all I'm saying.
Intelligence...a really great thing to have. Especially when it comes to Science. But are we "grown up" enough to handle what we create. That's my problem with it.

[Ophidia]

Re: Animal Testing

Well maybe I should have added "IMO"...I just think some things overstep boundaries, that I'd personally rather not overstep. With power comes great responsibility and often it seems humanity is not ready to handle the responsibility and the consequences that come from certain "scientific break throughs". Just look at all the things that were discovered in science to create the atomic bomb and everything that came after it......Are humans really handling this "thing" well?! And there are so many other examples. It's a blessing and a curse, that's all I'm saying.
Intelligence...a really great thing to have. Especially when it comes to Science. But are we "grown up" enough to handle what we create. That's my problem with it.

I don't see it as 'playing God' either. Since we're doing these things, we're obviously 'ready'.

Ingenuity is our nature, it's who we are & what we do. Humans as a species are infinitely creative, curious and equally destructive. We've created a lot of really big bombs in our time, and we've destroyed a lot of lives in the process. Eventually we'll figure out how to move forward without inflicting as much destruction as we do. If we can't or won't, then we destroy our home and ourselves in the process, and proven that the human species is an evolutionary black hole.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Animal Testing

It bothers me at a gut level, but I'm 55, and not much more of the future belongs to me. It's a choice for the people of the future - just one of a lot of possible choices - who choose they world they will live in, just as we did.

[Denarius]

Re: Animal Testing

Just look at all the things that were discovered in science to create the atomic bomb and everything that came after it.

I see it the other way. We've had nuclear capabilities for nearly seventy years, and it's only been used as a weapon twice. We understand how dangerous they are.

Plus, we are capable of some really nasty things that we just don't do. Right now we have the capability for orbital, chemical, and biological weapons that are as scary as nukes.

All of these are heavily regulated, because we understand very well the responsibilities these things entail.

Again, the simplest response I can give to you is "why stop now?" We've already made things that can destroy ourselves, anything else is just a matter of efficiency.

[jcaternolo]

Re: Animal Testing

I still stand by what I said earlier, I think any testing that gives animals pain is wrong. I'm not saying that we should scrap what we have learned, but think about it. Most of the products from animal testing are the things making us sick in the first place. If most of the world didn't turn so industrial/commercial and the average person wasn't weaned to like fast food, sodas, beauty products, cigarettes, etc, and if we all stuck with holistic medicine, then we would've evolved so much more as a society. (just look at the Sentinelese, they don't have any modern conveniences but they are thriving and living much better and healthier than their neighbors who have received western help)

Edit: My mom has diabetes and I am thankful that there is medicine to keep her alive. However, if the medical profession wasn't so occupied with playing mad scientist and more focused on finding holistic cures, then there likely would've been more cures. But since hospitals are really businesses in disguise, and they want to make money, it's up to individuals for the most part to advance true medicine.

Edit 2: If we really must have testing, test on hardened criminals. Some may complain about their human rights being violated, but they deserve far less rights than an innocent animal. (and I'm not talking about jay walkers, but rapists and murderers)

[Denarius]

Re: Animal Testing

Hollistic medicine has it's place, but surely you understand why actual medicine is better. If there is a root, leaf, or berry that has a medicinal property then it can be isolated and replicated. That makes it safer, cheaper, and more reliable and attainable to the common man.

Yeah, medicine as a business has more than it's fair share of problems... but medicine as a science is not the problem.

[jcaternolo]

Re: Animal Testing

Hollistic medicine has it's place, but surely you understand why actual medicine is better. If there is a root, leaf, or berry that has a medicinal property then it can be isolated and replicated. That makes it safer, cheaper, and more reliable and attainable to the common man.

Yeah, medicine as a business has more than it's fair share of problems... but medicine as a science is not the problem.

Yes, you have a point. I just feel guilty whenever I use something that was tested on animals, I can imagine soap being dripped into animals eyes or aids being injected into a monkey. I just feel sick that stuff like this is a necessary evil. There has to be some other way, I don't think we were meant to live like this.

[Ophidia]

Re: Animal Testing

I still stand by what I said earlier, I think any testing that gives animals pain is wrong. I'm not saying that we should scrap what we have learned, but think about it. Most of the products from animal testing are the things making us sick in the first place. If most of the world didn't turn so industrial/commercial and the average person wasn't weaned to like fast food, sodas, beauty products, cigarettes, etc, and if we all stuck with holistic medicine, then we would've evolved so much more as a society. (just look at the Sentinelese, they don't have any modern conveniences but they are thriving and living much better and healthier than their neighbors who have received western help)

Just because something is 'holistic', 'natural' or 'organic' doesn't mean that it's safe, effective or environmentally friendly.

Humans have been purposefully and voluntarily using things that are known to be dangerous for a very long time - even before animal testing became a 'thing'. That's how we found out so many things were deadly - like lead, arsenic, radium, etc. And we get mad when we're told that something is too dangerous to use anymore. Hell, there are people so desperate for 'beauty' that they'll use things that probably weren't tested on animals because the product was never meant to be used on a human (like construction-grade silicone caulking) to enhance their boobs & butts.

[thalassa]

Re: Animal Testing

Perze, there's a pretty good lay science book on toxicology called "The Dose makes the Poison" that you might be interested in.