Have you ever talked to a demon?

[Azvanna]

Re: Have you ever talked to a demon?

She is clever, but there are a few more things to consider. I'll pm you Rae'ya

[KahlanAmnell]

Re: Have you ever talked to a demon?

Yes but you only have knowledge and drive to return to that Garden because of Eve's partaking of the fruit specifically against YHVH's instructions. If she hadn't done that then her descendants would know nothing of the outside world... they would know nothing of suffering, nothing of what it is to be away from YHVH's Divine presence. And because they would not know anything else, they would not have any concept of how important that is to them. You can not know just how important pleasure is if you have never felt pain. You can have a theoretical knowledge, but that deeper knowledge only comes from experiencing what it is to not have it.

So looking at it that way, Eve's actions are the only reason that you know that you want to return to YHVH's everlasting Divine presence. Because you have knowledge of the alternatives. Thus you have a spiritual and experiential knowledge and desire.



Oh, I agree that Eve did not do anything wrong or consciously act in a defiant way. But she did disobey YHVH's direct orders when she was told that the fruit would not kill her. Of course she didn't know it was wrong to do so... she had no concept of right or wrong. YHVH told her one thing, the serpent told her another. She acted based on what the serpent told her. And for that YHVH punished her. Which to me seems a bit unfair given that she could not possibly have known that going against his word was wrong. All she did was act on the most recent and up to date information she had been given. That's all.

I don't agree that it can't be considered a test though. I don't necessarily think it was a conscious test, but I don't exclude the possibility just because she didn't know right from wrong. YHVH told her something and she didn't believe his word over the serpents word. You don't have to have knowledge of the test in order for it to be a test. Sometimes the most telling tests are those that you don't recognise, or don't even have the concept of in order to recognise it. Then you are being tested on the most base level of your actions.



I actually do agree with you that there is no direct correlation between the serpent and Ha-Satan... it is not explicitly stated anywhere and therefore we can't know for sure whether the serpent was the first Ha-Satan or whether it was just a serpent. I just pull out that statement for people who assume that the serpent is Ha-Satan and therefore must be evil or whatever... if you look at it that way then the Ha-Satan was just doing his job. If you look at it that the serpent was just a serpent, well the serpent just told Eve the truth. So either way, the serpent did not lie to Eve, nor did it trick her or do anything evil or bad. It just told her the truth.

The rest of what you said above... the Fall of Ha-Satan and the others... that's not a part of the Adam and Eve story nor did any of us so far say that it was. It's a later story. We just happened to be talking about the two stories and you may have assumed that we were saying they were related. They aren't. The Fall of Ha-Satan is not the same as the Fall of Adam and Eve.



I actually find it rather telling that Genesis 2:17 states that YHVH told Adam that if he eats the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and bad then he will die. Yet in Genesis 3:4-5, the serpent tells Eve that if she eats of that fruit she will not die but will have her eyes opened to what is good and bad, and will thus become as a god. All three of my versions of Genesis agree on this point. They also agree that Adam and Eve did not die as YHVH told them they would... they had their eyes opened just as the serpent told them. So of YHVH and the serpent, who was telling the truth?

Genesis also tells us that YHVH threw them out of the Garden of Eden out of fear that they would them eat of the fruit of the tree of life and become immortal. My Tanakh says in Genesis 3:22 "And the Lord God said, Now that the man has become like one of us, knowing good and bad, what if he should stretch out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever!". My two Bibles say much the same thing.

Thus Adam and Eve were not sent from the Garden because they disobeyed, but because YHVH was scared that they would eat from the Tree of Life.

When you read the actual (albeit translated) words of the story rather than paraphrased re-tellings, you pick up all sorts of significant distinctions. Unfortunately I don't read Hebrew... it would be very interesting to see the original Hebrew story.

This is easily one of the smartest things I've read today.

[Rae'ya]

Re: Have you ever talked to a demon?

Which is an interesting statement because that little Garden is where many of us are trying to now return to. Some might call it other things, but essentially I view it as that oneness with the Divine. To be wholly yourself, or wholly with your God or however a person views ascension.

Yes but you only have knowledge and drive to return to that Garden because of Eve's partaking of the fruit specifically against YHVH's instructions. If she hadn't done that then her descendants would know nothing of the outside world... they would know nothing of suffering, nothing of what it is to be away from YHVH's Divine presence. And because they would not know anything else, they would not have any concept of how important that is to them. You can not know just how important pleasure is if you have never felt pain. You can have a theoretical knowledge, but that deeper knowledge only comes from experiencing what it is to not have it.

So looking at it that way, Eve's actions are the only reason that you know that you want to return to YHVH's everlasting Divine presence. Because you have knowledge of the alternatives. Thus you have a spiritual and experiential knowledge and desire.

Eve can't have been tested: She only knew Good. How can she make a valid a choice to obey/disobey when it is not in her to defiantly disobey? She does not know to disobey is evil, she has not that knowledge.

Oh, I agree that Eve did not do anything wrong or consciously act in a defiant way. But she did disobey YHVH's direct orders when she was told that the fruit would not kill her. Of course she didn't know it was wrong to do so... she had no concept of right or wrong. YHVH told her one thing, the serpent told her another. She acted based on what the serpent told her. And for that YHVH punished her. Which to me seems a bit unfair given that she could not possibly have known that going against his word was wrong. All she did was act on the most recent and up to date information she had been given. That's all.

I don't agree that it can't be considered a test though. I don't necessarily think it was a conscious test, but I don't exclude the possibility just because she didn't know right from wrong. YHVH told her something and she didn't believe his word over the serpents word. You don't have to have knowledge of the test in order for it to be a test. Sometimes the most telling tests are those that you don't recognise, or don't even have the concept of in order to recognise it. Then you are being tested on the most base level of your actions.

All creation was good: From my Bible in this story, there's no mention of a devil, just a snake as a wild animal. It was part of earthly creation. The snake and the woman are both cursed, but I don't read a war in the Heavens happening. Maybe Satan had nothing to do with Eve's actions. Even if Satan was the snake, there's a cosmological interplay here that goes beyond a simple: Humans disobeyed God and so He cursed us and sent us away.

I actually do agree with you that there is no direct correlation between the serpent and Ha-Satan... it is not explicitly stated anywhere and therefore we can't know for sure whether the serpent was the first Ha-Satan or whether it was just a serpent. I just pull out that statement for people who assume that the serpent is Ha-Satan and therefore must be evil or whatever... if you look at it that way then the Ha-Satan was just doing his job. If you look at it that the serpent was just a serpent, well the serpent just told Eve the truth. So either way, the serpent did not lie to Eve, nor did it trick her or do anything evil or bad. It just told her the truth.

The rest of what you said above... the Fall of Ha-Satan and the others... that's not a part of the Adam and Eve story nor did any of us so far say that it was. It's a later story. We just happened to be talking about the two stories and you may have assumed that we were saying they were related. They aren't. The Fall of Ha-Satan is not the same as the Fall of Adam and Eve.

I just think there's a whole lot more going on than what our very limited English translations can offer. It seems that we are handing down assumed knowledge that is centuries old without being critical. Who is to say this is so literal? Maybe it's a primitive story passed down via oral tradition with all the trappings of ritual and visual art, and now all we have left are the translated words. I'm certain there's more to this story than a surface interpretation could allow for.

I actually find it rather telling that Genesis 2:17 states that YHVH told Adam that if he eats the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and bad then he will die. Yet in Genesis 3:4-5, the serpent tells Eve that if she eats of that fruit she will not die but will have her eyes opened to what is good and bad, and will thus become as a god. All three of my versions of Genesis agree on this point. They also agree that Adam and Eve did not die as YHVH told them they would... they had their eyes opened just as the serpent told them. So of YHVH and the serpent, who was telling the truth?

Genesis also tells us that YHVH threw them out of the Garden of Eden out of fear that they would them eat of the fruit of the tree of life and become immortal. My Tanakh says in Genesis 3:22 "And the Lord God said, Now that the man has become like one of us, knowing good and bad, what if he should stretch out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever!". My two Bibles say much the same thing.

Thus Adam and Eve were not sent from the Garden because they disobeyed, but because YHVH was scared that they would eat from the Tree of Life.

When you read the actual (albeit translated) words of the story rather than paraphrased re-tellings, you pick up all sorts of significant distinctions. Unfortunately I don't read Hebrew... it would be very interesting to see the original Hebrew story.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Have you ever talked to a demon?

Which is an interesting statement because that little Garden is where many of us are trying to now return to. Some might call it other things...

Yeah. I call it the Zoo of Kept Animals.

[Azvanna]

Re: Have you ever talked to a demon?

Actually, he was doing his job here... testing the faith and obedience of Eve. Good on her for failing the test, because if she hadn't, her descendents would all be mindless oppressed slaves who have no free will or knowledge of anything outside their little Garden.

Which is an interesting statement because that little Garden is where many of us are trying to now return to. Some might call it other things, but essentially I view it as that oneness with the Divine. To be wholly yourself, or wholly with your God or however a person views ascension.

I think there was a whole lot more going on in Genesis 3 than we are conditioned to accept. I can't connect all the dots yet (probably because I don't know very very little of Jewish linguistics or culture), but here's some thoughts.
Eve can't have been tested: She only knew Good. How can she make a valid a choice to obey/disobey when it is not in her to defiantly disobey? She does not know to disobey is evil, she has not that knowledge.
All creation was good: From my Bible in this story, there's no mention of a devil, just a snake as a wild animal. It was part of earthly creation. The snake and the woman are both cursed, but I don't read a war in the Heavens happening. Maybe Satan had nothing to do with Eve's actions. Even if Satan was the snake, there's a cosmological interplay here that goes beyond a simple: Humans disobeyed God and so He cursed us and sent us away.


I just think there's a whole lot more going on than what our very limited English translations can offer. It seems that we are handing down assumed knowledge that is centuries old without being critical. Who is to say this is so literal? Maybe it's a primitive story passed down via oral tradition with all the trappings of ritual and visual art, and now all we have left are the translated words. I'm certain there's more to this story than a surface interpretation could allow for.

As for speaking with a demonic entity, I don't think I have. I know I have said 'no' to certain spiritual influences that I consider immoral entering or lingering in my life. Anyway, they are not important to me.

[Rae'ya]

Re: Have you ever talked to a demon?

Rae'ya, what about you, do you believe in Satan's existance? What do you think about Yahveh and his Paradise, do you consider him as an ordinary deity?

I believe that Ha-Satan is a title that was awarded to certain angels that performed that function at YHVH's behest. The term means roughly 'The Accuser' or 'The Adversary' and the ancient texts are very clear that it is a title, but not clear at all about who may have held that title. There's all sorts of speculation about exactly who THE Ha-Satan was... you know, the one who Fell and took a good chunk of the host of Heaven with him... but the reality is that the texts don't tell us so any word on the matter is either speculation or UPG. I don't speculate about who that particular Ha-Satan was, but I do believe that the title can be applied to a number of deities, and I'm one of those people who loosely attaches it to Adversary deities of all sorts of pantheons.

But yes, I do believe that the character of the Old Testament that wore the title Ha-Satan is an actual entity. However, I don't believe that he is the same entity that is now named 'The Devil'. I think that the Devil of the New Testament is an egregore that has been created from the amalgamated beliefs of thousands of Christians over time. I think that no such entity originally existed, but that came to exist and now exists as a self-sufficient entity that is a part of the Judeo-Christian pantheon. I've had no dealings with this egregore-Devil though, and I don't plan to. But he is not the same as Satan, Lucifer or Baal (which is also a title, not a name), and he is not an entity that Satanists and Demonolators work with.

YHVH... I think he's just a deity like any other. He's just more ambitious than most. I actually believe that YHVH was originally a Semitic deity, perhaps the deity of the early Canaanite pantheon who was named El (although that is another title that is not really a name). I personally think that he had ambitions of power and was perhaps influenced by Ahura Mazda and the monotheistic trend that was moving West from Zoroastrianism. I think that he started his own little set of followers in his little Garden of Eden and set himself up as the supreme deity of that line of followers. If you look at the ancient texts, he never actually states that he is the only god in the world... just that if you want to follow him you can't worship any other gods. The ancient texts actually state that Adam and Eve were NOT the only two humans in the world at that point... even if people wish to ignore Lillith's story, there are references in the Old Testament to people outside of Eden, and of lines of descent that don't stem from Adam and Eve.

I think that the Garden of Eden is a place in the Otherworlds where YHVH set up his little breeding program, and that Adam and Eve were kicked out into this world when they didn't play by his rules. I think that YHVH rules his corner of the Otherworlds just as many deities rule their corners, but that he's protective and doesn't like to share his followers and the power in this world that he derives from them. I think that if you follow the Judeo-Christian paths then your after-death options are those laid out by those faiths, but that for the rest of us, what YHVH does or doesn't like, and what you have to do to get into Heaven, is irrelevant.

[creepyoak]

Re: Have you ever talked to a demon?

Torey, yes, what I have said is only an opinion, and I didn't really want it to sound in such manner, unfortunately my poor qualifier "so the legend says" didn't change anything much.

Can I ask you, do you believe in Satan, or you see him as a fiction figure created by imagination of men to justify their weakness?

Rae'ya, what about you, do you believe in Satan's existance? What do you think about Yahveh and his Paradise, do you consider him as an ordinary deity?

[Rae'ya]

Re: Have you ever talked to a demon?

Satan "quit" not because he was unsatisfied with his "job", quite the contrary. He was one of the favorite God's angels, he was the "coolest one", the right hand of God, and his name was Lucifer, which means 'the bearer of light'.

But then God created the first man and told angels to bow before the man. All angels did it except Lucifer who said that it's beneath his dignity. It was his pride that didn't let him do it, so he made a riot and with a bunch of other angels (actually one third) was thrown down on earth.

See Torey's post above. I don't really have much more to add to what he said, except that I agree with him completely.

Because of his hatred for men, he tempted Eva and in that way we were exiled from the Paradise. Anyway, so the legend says.

Actually, he was doing his job here... testing the faith and obedience of Eve. Good on her for failing the test, because if she hadn't, her descendents would all be mindless oppressed slaves who have no free will or knowledge of anything outside their little Garden.

And really, Eve was just following in the conceptual footsteps of Lilith, although she needed that nudge from the serpent first.

So if Satan does exist, he isn't a "good guy", he's a bad one, because of him we lost the Paradise. Though, he became popular during the period of Romanticism, kind of a symbol of a rebel spirit.

I don't know about you, but Paradise is the last place I would want to end up. But aside from anything, humanity didn't lose Paradise... they just have to earn their way back in. You know... by repenting and accepting YHVH as their supreme deity and all that. It's not lost forever, you just have to live out your existence down here on the mundane plane first.

You did hit it there with the 'symbol of a rebel spirit' bit... rebelling against dogma, oppression, flock mentality, unquestioning blind faith and ignorance are some of the things that Ha-Satan(s) are representative of.

[Torey]

Re: Have you ever talked to a demon?

Creepyoak, are you a Christian at all? I appreciate if you'd rather not answer, but your statement here reflects something of a Christian worldview - there's nothing wrong with being of a Christian inclination, but I take exception to your remarks in that you have stated them in a factual manner when they are, more accurately, perceptions and opinions.

Satan "quit" not because he was unsatisfied with his "job", quite the contrary. He was one of the favorite God's angels, he was the "coolest one", the right hand of God, and his name was Lucifer, which means 'the bearer of light'.

But then God created the first man and told angels to bow before the man. All angels did it exept Lucifer who said that it's beneath his dignity. It was his pride that didn't let him do it, so he made a riot and with a bunch of other angels (actually one third) was thrown down on earth.

Because of his hatred for men, he tempted Eva and in that way we were exiled from the Paradise. Anyway, so the legend says.

Thank you for the qualifier, "so the legend says". All that you have mentioned here is regurgitation of Biblical and pseudoepigrahical mythology in which the term "Lucifer" has been apropriated and applied to Satan when the original context of the most popular instance of its usage within the Vulgate indicated an allusion to the fall of the Babylonian king - which was, in itself, a re-telling of an earlier Canaanite myth. Furthermore, "Lucifer" is used several times throughout the Vulgate and refers to many different people - one being Jesus himself - and none of them "fallen angels".

The New Testament is clearly the turning point in the mythos of "Lucifer" and "the Devil", not to mention extra-Biblical sources. There's nothing wrong with believing the stories from this point onwards, but they shouldn't be stated or implied as factual.

So if Satan does exist, he isn't a "good guy", he's a bad one, because of him we lost the Paradise. Though, he became popular during the period of Romanticism, kind of a symbol of a rebel spirit.

I take offense to this only because, once again, your perceptions are being stated as factual. Satan is only a "bad guy" if you consider A) the extra-Biblical mythologies to be factual and indeed concerning Him and B) you believe that the story of "Paradise" was true and you resent having free will which supposedly got human beings cast out. Even if "Satan" did "tempt" Eve, she made a choice - free will.

Again, if we were to identify "Satan" with the "serpent", then He is surely only fulfilling His original role as the adversary and accuser - again, His original role being to test the faith and loyalty of human beings to God. I would certainly say that by "tempting" Eve, He was testing Her. As an agent of God, Satan is not to blame for Eve's transgression - ultimately, God would be as it was God who created Satan and it was God who gave Man free will. I disagree with lumping the blame for everything based upon free will on Satan, "the Devil" or "Lucifer".

P.S. There's an opinion, that if Adam and Eve would ask God for forgiveness, he would forgave them, but instead they began to make excuses and blame eath other. They just had to admit their fault, that's all.

I find it amusing and slightly hypocritical that you mention that Adam and Eve failed to ask for forgiveness and instead blamed one another - yes, what happened to humanity taking responsibility for its own mistakes? And again it's rather simple - because it's much easier to blame someone else (i.e. - Satan, "the Devil", "Lucifer"), don't you think?

[creepyoak]

Re: Have you ever talked to a demon?

Satan "quit" not because he was unsatisfied with his "job", quite the contrary. He was one of the favorite God's angels, he was the "coolest one", the right hand of God, and his name was Lucifer, which means 'the bearer of light'.

But then God created the first man and told angels to bow before the man. All angels did it exept Lucifer who said that it's beneath his dignity. It was his pride that didn't let him do it, so he made a riot and with a bunch of other angels (actually one third) was thrown down on earth.

Because of his hatred for men, he tempted Eva and in that way we were exiled from the Paradise. Anyway, so the legend says.

So if Satan does exist, he isn't a "good guy", he's a bad one, because of him we lost the Paradise. Though, he became popular during the period of Romanticism, kind of a symbol of a rebel spirit.


P.S. There's an opinion, that if Adam and Eve would ask God for forgiveness, he would forgave them, but instead they began to make excuses and blame eath other. They just had to admit their fault, that's all.

[Rae'ya]

Re: Have you ever talked to a demon?

If Satan is real (which I don't believe he is), I hope he no longer does the will of God at all. I hope he becomes a much more devoted rebel against God. Seriously, the God of the Bible is an oppressive, tyrannical freak who I also don't believe in. I would be honored to help Satan in his little coup against YHVH if they exist. It seems to me that Satan is the good guy in the Bible. He never drowned most of the people on Earth. He never told one people to kill and harm another. He seems to accept everyone regardless of gender/gender identity, race, religion, or sexuality. He doesn't expect people to worship him. He really seems to like free thinkers.

He doesn't work for YHVH anymore... that's the point. He quit and took half the host of Heaven with Him when he Fell, hence now we have a great many Demons who were once Angels. The Ha-Satan(s) have become a figure of freedom from oppression and dogma for many people, and many Satanists would agree with what you've said here.

Hypothetically, it seems that it would be very painful and discouraging to be someone as nice as Satan and to be thrown out of heaven and into hell by the rather evil Jehovah.

Well the story goes that He was unsatisfied with His job and essentially quit. Then YHVH decided to cast him out of Heaven, which to me feels a lot like "you can't quit because you're fired... so there!" It depends on which side you're standing on as to which side of the story you believe... obviously both sides are biased in their perception of the whole thing. I don't think that YHVH is evil per se... He's just the way that He is and unfortunately the religions that have formed around Him sometimes tend towards discrimination and bigotry against everyone else. And at the end of the day, YHVH is not the only deity who has been cruel towards humanity... in fact most of the supreme deities have stories surrounding them which would suggest contempt towards humanity, which they once considered to essentially be a slave race. Zeus and Osiris are two deities who I like to bring up here... neither of them were originally particularly kind towards humans. So YHVH is not the only one who was oppressive, tyrannical and murderous.

[KahlanAmnell]

Re: Have you ever talked to a demon?

The job of the Ha-Satan was to test the faith of humanity... that's what YHVH wanted him to do... test the faith of humanity, tempt them into sinning and then judge them when they failed the tests. That's how the whole 'Satan tempts you into sin' thing came about... because that's what He did. There's not much of a leap from that into 'Satan will make me stray from God and I must resist him' and the 'Satan is evil and must be resisted'. And then anything that wasn't an angel was 'of Satan' and therefore also evil.

If Satan is real (which I don't believe he is), I hope he no longer does the will of God at all. I hope he becomes a much more devoted rebel against God. Seriously, the God of the Bible is an oppressive, tyrannical freak who I also don't believe in. I would be honored to help Satan in his little coup against YHVH if they exist. It seems to me that Satan is the good guy in the Bible. He never drowned most of the people on Earth. He never told one people to kill and harm another. He seems to accept everyone regardless of gender/gender identity, race, religion, or sexuality. He doesn't expect people to worship him. He really seems to like free thinkers.

Hypothetically, it seems that it would be very painful and discouraging to be someone as nice as Satan and to be thrown out of heaven and into hell by the rather evil Jehovah.

[Rae'ya]

Re: Have you ever talked to a demon?

But I don't understand why Christians believe so? I mean what reasons did they have to change everything? If it's the matter of praying to only one spirit, they also have Mary and angels and a lot of saints, why didn't they just say that demons are nice God-helpers and we can pray to them if we like? It would be a lot easier for people to accept Christianity if they could continue praying to their previous gods.

Because they believe that anything that is not YHVH or an angel is evil. It really is as simple as that and there is no particular logic to it.

The job of the Ha-Satan was to test the faith of humanity... that's what YHVH wanted him to do... test the faith of humanity, tempt them into sinning and then judge them when they failed the tests. That's how the whole 'Satan tempts you into sin' thing came about... because that's what He did. There's not much of a leap from that into 'Satan will make me stray from God and I must resist him' and the 'Satan is evil and must be resisted'. And then anything that wasn't an angel was 'of Satan' and therefore also evil.

It's all just mistranslation and a matter of perspective.

How does one go about talking to a demon if indeed they are real? How would one talk to Satan himself if he were real?

Same way you talk to any spirit or deity.

[Aeran]

Re: Have you ever talked to a demon?

How does one go about talking to a demon if indeed they are real? How would one talk to Satan himself if he were real?

I'm not sure about satan in particular, but the usual method would be through evocation.

[KahlanAmnell]

Re: Have you ever talked to a demon?

How does one go about talking to a demon if indeed they are real? How would one talk to Satan himself if he were real?