I am a born again evangelical Christian

[wildcat]

Re: I am a born again evangelical Christian

So now to my first question : How do you know the faith you have now is the truth ? What if you found out that Christ was who He claimed to be and more than He was cracked up to be? Would you consider switching sides?

The first thought that came to my head is to reverse the question to you. How do you know your faith is the truth, and what if you found out Christ wasn't he was claimed to be, would you switch sides? I only reverse it because I think it's fair that you offer your own response to the question while asking us. I read too often of Christians who ask this question, but don't consider it fairly and honestly when it's directed at themselves.

I'm an honest person when it comes to the first question. I don't know if my faith is the "truth". I take the rational and fair stance of not declaring any truth. Even if my gods are true, I still wouldn't declare to know their true nature, since I would take that to be hubris, which I (and many gods) dislike. Now, it's hard for me to deny that my gods are real, however, since they are nature gods and therefore, their reality is right before my eyes. I don't consider my gods supernatural, they are natural gods. How can I deny the existence of the Sun God, for example, when I just take a gander outside my window and look up in the sky? I was approached by my patron goddess, as she took on a physical form to approach me (as she should, given as to how she's present in all nature), and I knew it was her. Just like many Christians believe they've seen a vision or revelation that led them to Christ. I've been presented with my own revelation (and it was very strong), that led me to believe what I do.

How exactly would I find out if Christ is real, according to your second question? I guess if I die and end up in Heaven and Jesus is standing right before me, then.. I guess I'd believe? Although I'd be horribly disappointed, since I disagree with Christianity totally, and my beliefs are polar opposite to it. Nothing Christians say to me will change my mind, I've heard it many times, and I just.. disagree. I don't believe in it. Actually, when I was approached by my patron goddess, I was actually asking for help from God/Jesus (since at the time, nobody told me it was okay to believe something different). So, I can't say I didn't reach out, but when I did, I had a god approach me that gave me a revelation that the truth in my life was something radically different. Unlike Christians however, I do believe that people reach the divine through different paths. Even though Christians oppose that and say Jesus is the only way, I won't make that mistake by proclaiming polytheism is the only right path.

I don't agree with forming your beliefs based on what other people have said and written, I trust my own experiences more than I trust other people, and I have never experienced anything that pointed towards Christianity. I hope I don't sound bitter or anything, I've never had a bad experience with Christianity directly, I wasn't raised in it (only in name), I just highly disagree with it.

As for your question, I respectfully decline to answer because I'd rather not write a book tonight.

I so told myself that I'd just write a short response, lol. It's hard not to write a long explanation. My explanation would have been a book as well if I laid out all the reasons that Christianity is opposite and unrelated to my beliefs.

[Briar]

Re: I am a born again evangelical Christian

How do you know the faith you have now is the truth ? What if you found out that Christ was who He claimed to be and more than He was cracked up to be? Would you consider switching sides?

Angelo

Faith is not truth, it is faith, they are two different things. Faith is a beautiful thing but it is still faith not truth. If it was truth it would not be faith. Faith means not needing truth to believe. Truth is when you are asked how the world began and you say "I don't know." Or is your religion the only one that should be followed. Answered with the truth means saying, "I have no idea." So, do you have to have truth to believe? If you do, you do not have faith. Faith is the gift of a childlike beliefs that mom or dad will never let bad things happen to them, they have faith in mom an dad.

Now, I was not overly blessed with the faith gene. I simply don't believe in much. I once took apart my parent's station wagon because I thought that the internal combustion engine was a scam. I mean you put that gas hose into your car--how do you even know if gas is coming out? Just because some little dial on the dashboard tells you it does? I just didn't believe it. Dad caught me under the car with a wrench just in time.

So for me to believe in ANY god I would need proof. Maybe if Jesus wrote his name on the moon with a postscript that said "Do you believe now, Berina?" Or ONE person in the time frame that Jesus would have existed wrote about his life in history. Or he struck down all those people who use his name to hate others...I don't know what it would take for me to believe in him, but those would be good places to start.

Would I switch sides? For me this isn't a war, I didn't chose a side. My best friend is a Methodist minister, I give money to her church because she does so much work for the poor. It's one of the things I love about many different churches, how much they give back to the community. The people who are part of those churches use their faith to give back to their community, a wonderful thing to see, no matter what it is you believe. I'm not in a battle so I would not "switch sides."

If your faith is beautiful, like my friend's, I will love you for it. If it is ugly, filled with hate, I will ignore you or trash talk you. It has nothing to do with what side you are on, but who you are and how you use a religion.

[Malflick]

Re: I am a born again evangelical Christian

Even though Christians oppose that and say Jesus is the only way, I won't make that mistake by proclaiming polytheism is the only right path.

You do realize Christianity is not one religion? Its certainly one faith, but the Doctrines of the denominations are so so far wide and varied, lumping all of us together in a big bundle really doesn't make much sense.

I mean, Arian Christians don't think Jesus is the only way by default, because they believe he was a prophet and not God. There is Atheist Christianity, where Jesus just gave the best advice on not being jerks to other people. There are plenty of Christian denominations that think that Christianity is not the only path to salvation as well. I should know, I happen to be a Christian who thinks that.

[wildcat]

Re: I am a born again evangelical Christian

You do realize Christianity is not one religion? Its certainly one faith, but the Doctrines of the denominations are so so far wide and varied, lumping all of us together in a big bundle really doesn't make much sense.

I mean, Arian Christians don't think Jesus is the only way by default, because they believe he was a prophet and not God. There is Atheist Christianity, where Jesus just gave the best advice on not being jerks to other people. There are plenty of Christian denominations that think that Christianity is not the only path to salvation as well. I should know, I happen to be a Christian who thinks that.

I apologize. My response there was influenced by a comment made by the original poster earlier in this thread. And most of the Christians that I have spoken to seemed to have also held onto that belief as well. Most likely evangelical Christians. I didn't mean to offend any Christians who are a part of a denomination who doesn't believe that, I just happen to encounter it most often.

[DanieMarie]

Re: I am a born again evangelical Christian

I was raised to believe that all religions are just different interpretations of the divine and I still take that to heart. If I found out that Jesus was the son of god, I would believe it, but it wouldn't necessarily make me believe that my own beliefs were wrong all along. There is rarely one single truth to anything in this world.

[Malflick]

Re: I am a born again evangelical Christian

I apologize. My response there was influenced by a comment made by the original poster earlier in this thread. And most of the Christians that I have spoken to seemed to have also held onto that belief as well. Most likely evangelical Christians. I didn't mean to offend any Christians who are a part of a denomination who doesn't believe that, I just happen to encounter it most often.

Its alright, no harm done. I understand that the loudest, and most vocal and visible elements of Christianity are often the ones that become default spokespeople for the whole faith. It does frustrate me to be lumped in with people who are often rightly chastised (and I chastise the way many Christians treat others myself *sigh*), but we aren't all the same . Anyways, yeah, tis all good.

[DanieMarie]

Re: I am a born again evangelical Christian

Its alright, no harm done. I understand that the loudest, and most vocal and visible elements of Christianity are often the ones that become default spokespeople for the whole faith. It does frustrate me to be lumped in with people who are often rightly chastised (and I chastise the way many Christians treat others myself *sigh*), but we aren't all the same . Anyways, yeah, tis all good.

If it means anything, most Christians I know personally are more like you. Maybe I'm just really lucky, but I try not to discriminate against an entire group based on the behaviour of a few evangelicals on the news (which is most of my experience with the zealous type...I only know one hardcore evangelical in real life).

[Malflick]

Re: I am a born again evangelical Christian

If it means anything, most Christians I know personally are more like you. Maybe I'm just really lucky, but I try not to discriminate against an entire group based on the behaviour of a few evangelicals on the news (which is most of my experience with the zealous type...I only know one hardcore evangelical in real life).

I've met a few, but most I've met have been more like myself as well. I'm very glad to hear you've met more of my ilk .

The few that I've met though were very loud about that fact.

The news sure does find the crazies though :P

[MoonRaven]

Re: I am a born again evangelical Christian

So now to my first question : How do you know the faith you have now is the truth ? What if you found out that Christ was who He claimed to be and more than He was cracked up to be? Would you consider switching sides?

- - - Updated - - -

But Jesus said he is the only way to God the Father, and heaven. And as for other Gods, i do not believe, they are on par with God , creator of the universe, and Jesus Christ, savior of the world.

[DanieMarie]

Re: I am a born again evangelical Christian

I've met a few, but most I've met have been more like myself as well. I'm very glad to hear you've met more of my ilk .

The few that I've met though were very loud about that fact.

The news sure does find the crazies though :P

It's because everyone secretly loves to be offended or shocked when they read the news :P

[thalassa]

Re: I am a born again evangelical Christian

First off, welcome to PF.

So now to my first question : How do you know the faith you have now is the truth ? What if you found out that Christ was who He claimed to be and more than He was cracked up to be? Would you consider switching sides?

I don't know that my faith is "the truth". If I did, it wouldn't be faith, and I am perfectly okay with that.. What I do know though, is that my faith is rooted my experience of this world and this existence (which is the only one, IMO, that counts), and that my experiences with the natural world and with the Divine that inhabits it, in all of its manifestations, have been powerful, moving, and magical. My experience of Jesus on the other hand, has been inconsequential and my experience of Christianity has been either benignly uninspiring or quite negative. I see no reason to change my religious opinion or philosophy at this time, nor do I see myself changing my opinion on the matter so much so that I would find some sort of Truth in Christ anytime soon.

[wildcat]

Re: I am a born again evangelical Christian

It does frustrate me to be lumped in with people who are often rightly chastised (and I chastise the way many Christians treat others myself *sigh*), but we aren't all the same . Anyways, yeah, tis all good.

I will definitely keep in mind when I talk of Christianity to make it clear that it is only a certain evangelical-type viewpoint of Christians that I disagree with. I encounter it so frequently, that I falsely just go with that view as default when discussing the religion. I'll be more careful now on not to lump everyone together. I'm glad that it's all okay, I didn't mean to cause offense.

As for Saviour of the world, what do we need saving from? In my worldview there is no original sin we need redemption from.

This is one the reasons that Christianity doesn't work for me. I don't believe in the concept of sin, and nor do I recognize the existence of objective morality. I worship nature, so I see humans as being as they were meant to be, and nothing we do is anything remotely sinful. It's all based on our instincts and drives as humans, and our subjective viewpoints of the world and the morality we personally choose to stand by. Sin just doesn't make sense to me. And I don't think that humans are in need to be "saved" in the Christian-sense. We certainly need to work on saving ourselves by making our world a better and more peaceful place, we should strive to be the best person we can to leave a positive print on the earth before we leave it, but I don't think our souls need to be saved, I don't think there is anything inherently "bad" about us humans, we are simply coinciding with our human-nature. And I find it sad when certain people demonize thoughts and behaviours that I see as perfectly natural to our species. These are all my own thoughts and viewpoints of course, I'm not declaring how other people should view things.

[Aniera]

Re: I am a born again evangelical Christian

and I and many other Christians think such a sexist view of women's roles is not just bad, stupid, and evil, but against our religion. And yes, I know there are a large vocal number who veer VERY much in the opposite direction ..... Anyways I'm sorry the churches in your area suck in that regard.

Yes I know..thank you though. That's why I said that it was probably just the churches in my area that are still stuck in that mindset- yay for living in middle of no where haha

[Eljon]

Re: I am a born again evangelical Christian

I will definitely keep in mind when I talk of Christianity to make it clear that it is only a certain evangelical-type viewpoint of Christians that I disagree with. I encounter it so frequently, that I falsely just go with that view as default when discussing the religion. I'll be more careful now on not to lump everyone together. I'm glad that it's all okay, I didn't mean to cause offense.



This is one the reasons that Christianity doesn't work for me. I don't believe in the concept of sin, and nor do I recognize the existence of objective morality. I worship nature, so I see humans as being as they were meant to be, and nothing we do is anything remotely sinful. It's all based on our instincts and drives as humans, and our subjective viewpoints of the world and the morality we personally choose to stand by. Sin just doesn't make sense to me. And I don't think that humans are in need to be "saved" in the Christian-sense. We certainly need to work on saving ourselves by making our world a better and more peaceful place, we should strive to be the best person we can to leave a positive print on the earth before we leave it, but I don't think our souls need to be saved, I don't think there is anything inherently "bad" about us humans, we are simply coinciding with our human-nature. And I find it sad when certain people demonize thoughts and behaviours that I see as perfectly natural to our species. These are all my own thoughts and viewpoints of course, I'm not declaring how other people should view things.

Based on what ground can you possibly say, your moral code is superior to mine ? If humans are the last instance of morals, everything is permitted. It depends only of each ones individual standpoint and opinion.that is called moral relativism.
There are only two possibilities :

1. Either morals are grounded in ourselfs, that leads to moral relativism, or
2. Morals are absolute, prescriptive, and grounded in God, outside of our opinion, and exists, independently if we agree with it or not.

I believe there are some moral absolutes - you shall not rape, torture, burn and kill babies for fun. Anyone that saw this guy from nigeria slaugthering this english soldier will agree that it was a crude, horrible , uncivilized act of barbarism. Its hard to imagine that someone would justify such acts, independently if you were from the civilized world, or from a jungle tribe, or aboriginee.

So you have basically two oposing view points : absolutism, and relativism. Both cannot be true. If relativism were true, you could not argue against the reasons of the nigeria guy. It was simply his oposing point of view, that it was legitimate to kill the english solidier, based on the argument, that westerners kill many muslims - completely ignoring that most muslims are killed by muslims themselfs. But that simply doesn't work.

So if you hold that there are some moral rules and absolutes, outside of your opinion, like not killing and rape little babies, than i can tell you : you do believe much more than you actually think you do.

I might ask you : what kind of thing is it , that you believe ? Its not a physical thing - morals are not physical - they have no physical properties, its a immaterial thing . You know it exists, but you cannot specify it with touching, smelling, seeing, hearing. So you believe something, but you cannot test or verify it empirically. That has further implications : it proves materialism is false. So lets say you agree that torture,rape, and kill babies is wrong, this moral rule is out there somewhere, independently on your opinion, if you agree on it , or not, the question arises : where did this moral rule come from ? You have two choices : either

1. it came from nowhere, than why should it have any moral force ?

2. it is a moral law that was made by someone that lives in a immaterial realm. Thats the option that makes most sense to me.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: I am a born again evangelical Christian

There are only two possibilities :

1. Either morals are grounded in ourselfs, that leads to moral relativism, or
2. Morals are absolute, prescriptive, and grounded in God, outside of our opinion, and exists, independently if we agree with it or not.

#3. Some "morals" are the product of evolution - example: a species that wantonly destroys it's own infants does not survive.

#4. Some "morals" are created by humans in order to control the behavior of other humans - by inflicting a sense of morality on others, the weak have a way of gaining mastery over the strong, a la Nietzsche. Example: The Pope is a limp old fart who could not stop ANYBODY from having sex before marriage without the boogieman of god providing psychological muscle.

#5. Having the same basic mental apparatus, it is highly likely that at least some of what we refer to as "morals" are generated in various cultures through the mechanical workings of the mind, and so are, at times, similar, in the same way that, with all humans being physically similar, no culture has developed a preference for the "back-to-back" position of sexual intercourse.

#6. What we refer to as "morals" is a broad category, members of which are derived from various sources. Does the "morality" that says "don't kill your mother" come from the same source as the morality that says "Thou shalt not wack off"? Doesn't look likely to me...

Your thinking could be considerable deeper. Use some imagination!

:devil::devil: