Basic income

[lomeydecos]

Re: Basic income

it actually is base income which can not attract any kind of deductions.

[monsno_leedra]

Re: Basic income

There is one other aspect to this that I think is overlooked but critical in application. That is creating a universal data base of eligible people in order for them to receive such stipends. The data that would be needed to be provided I think would cause an out roar against it as it would suggest uses beyond simply who gets what. You'd still have the potential issues we have in the US today about illegals and profiling of people based upon any number of potential characteristics.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Basic income

When it comes to families... I don't know, maybe provide a block of rooms? Two or three. One for mom and dad, one for boy children, one for girl children.

"The Projects" always end up being worse than living on the streets...

[DanieMarie]

Re: Basic income

"The Projects" always end up being worse than living on the streets...

It all depends on how they're built, managed, and executed. It also depends on other social support like education and welfare. Our low income housing here in Berlin is often nicer than many regular rentals. Of course, the city is selling off a lot of them, but I think that's another issue entirely (the cost of reunification plus the fact that the city of Berlin cannot manage money to save its life).

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Basic income

Also, do any of you know enough about economics to know what happens to the value of a dollar when everybody has enough money?

To make a scheme like this work would require wage freezes, price freezes, and governmental control (rather than market control) of the "value" of the dollar - i.e.: complete governmental control over the entire economy. These things are very bad...

[DanieMarie]

Re: Basic income

Also, do any of you know enough about economics to know what happens to the value of a dollar when everybody has enough money?

To make a scheme like this work would require wage freezes, price freezes, and governmental control (rather than market control) of the "value" of the dollar - i.e.: complete governmental control over the entire economy. These things are very bad...

Yep.

If the government allows low wages to make up for it. So, we all have to subsidize people who pay low wages.

It's far better to bring wages up to speed with real-time costs.

I'm a fan of regulations and I believe in strong social safety nets to ensure reasonable standards of living for everyone. I also believe that neither complete government nor complete market control are good solutions for economies (you need a balance). BUT I don't think a guaranteed basic income could work. I'd like it to work, but it can't. Either you have to go into communism, which doesn't work, or you have to let the income subsidize lack of wages for businesses, which isn't fair to taxpayers.

[Rowanwood]

Re: Basic income

Yep.

If the government allows low wages to make up for it. So, we all have to subsidize people who pay low wages.

It's far better to bring wages up to speed with real-time costs.

I'm a fan of regulations and I believe in strong social safety nets to ensure reasonable standards of living for everyone. I also believe that neither complete government nor complete market control are good solutions for economies (you need a balance). BUT I don't think a guaranteed basic income could work. I'd like it to work, but it can't. Either you have to go into communism, which doesn't work, or you have to let the income subsidize lack of wages for businesses, which isn't fair to taxpayers.

But artificially raising wages is exactly what, I think, Corbin is talking about. That's inflation. That's why a car used to cost $1000 and now costs $10000.

[Denarius]

Re: Basic income

Who's going to clean toilets if the government will just pay you to be alive? Who's going to dig ditches and empty bed pans and flip burgers?

Robots and computers, that's who. There are no where near enough jobs to go around, which is a large part of the poverty problem. McDonald's and Starbucks already have systems that could entirely replace most of their workers. Cashiers, janitors, tellers, telemarketers, factory workers, miners, lumberjacks...

They are all becoming increasingly irrelevant, and the only reason a lot of them have jobs is because it's cheaper and easier to hire people than to automate. The moment that ceases to be true they'll be dumped.

The system we are using now is the unsustainable one, and it's easy to see. There are more than twice as many unemployed people as there are available jobs, and that skew is getting worse and worse over time. Are there even going to be burger flipping, milk-frothing, toilet cleaning, bed pan dumping, or ditch digging jobs in twenty years? Fifteen, ten, five?

[Rowanwood]

Re: Basic income

Robots and computers, that's who. There are no where near enough jobs to go around, which is a large part of the poverty problem. McDonald's and Starbucks already have systems that could entirely replace most of their workers. Cashiers, janitors, tellers, telemarketers, factory workers, miners, lumberjacks...

They are all becoming increasingly irrelevant, and the only reason a lot of them have jobs is because it's cheaper and easier to hire people than to automate. The moment that ceases to be true they'll be dumped.

The system we are using now is the unsustainable one, and it's easy to see. There are more than twice as many unemployed people as there are available jobs, and that skew is getting worse and worse over time. Are there even going to be burger flipping, milk-frothing, toilet cleaning, bed pan dumping, or ditch digging jobs in twenty years? Fifteen, ten, five?

Have you ever worked with robotics? Because I think you forget how expensive they are. It will never be affordable for a computer to clean toilets. For example, I work for a plumbing company. We have an electronic toilet, it cleans YOU, but it still has to be cleaned by a person. It's $6000. That's hardly likely to become an everyday item. Certainly, technology has become less expensive, but raw materials have not. Large machines will become increasingly expensive, so I don't see how that will even be a legitimate possibility...during our lifetimes anyway.

It also doesn't at all address the original issue.

[DanieMarie]

Re: Basic income

But artificially raising wages is exactly what, I think, Corbin is talking about. That's inflation. That's why a car used to cost $1000 and now costs $10000.

Sorry, but I come from a place with a minimum wage of $10.25 and live in a place without a minimum wage. While prices in Canada are higher, they aren't -that- much higher and a lot of consumer goods cost less. The difference in food costs has a lot of other factors at hand.

I don't think people earning more than slave wages makes prices get out of hand and economic data does not support that either.

- - - Updated - - -

Here is a great article on raising minimum wage and its effect on employment and inflation: http://www.theatlantic.com/business/...nswers/282326/

And some business press info: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-0...s-a-raise.html (kind of sparse, but links to a lot of good studies).

I'm not saying it doesn't affect inflation at all. I'm just saying it doesn't do so enough to fret about. Overall, the positive effects outweigh inflation. And of course, there is a limit to how much minimum wage can be raised before the costs outweigh the benefits. We do not live in Utopia and that goes without saying. But that doesn't mean it can't be raised to the point that it would benefit low wage workers.

[Denarius]

Re: Basic income

Selfcleaningtoilet.net, for all your self cleaning toilet needs. Combine that with increasingly awesome non-stick coating and antimicrobial surfacing tech... We could easily be there within the next decade or so. Especially if corporations made it a priority.

[DanieMarie]

Re: Basic income

The problem is, self-cleaning toilets and self-checkouts don't pay taxes. If you have a lot of people reaping benefits instead of working, how are you going to gain enough tax income?

I know that there are other jobs out there, but at this point, there just aren't enough of them. If it were that easy, we'd already be there, because once again, no one wants to do a lot of jobs out there.

[Rowanwood]

Re: Basic income

The problem is, self-cleaning toilets and self-checkouts don't pay taxes. If you have a lot of people reaping benefits instead of working, how are you going to gain enough tax income?

I know that there are other jobs out there, but at this point, there just aren't enough of them. If it were that easy, we'd already be there, because once again, no one wants to do a lot of jobs out there.

Right, and its on my side of the fence that there will always be more people looking for benefits than paying for them -- especially those on the cusp where they do about the same working as they do not working. The better the "free"benefits are, the less incentive there is to work. Some people have the ethics that they don't want something for nothing, but human nature is slanted the other way. We are HAPPY to take something for nothing, but in a society that just doesn't work.

If robots are cleaning our toilets, and only the most skilled are working, what's going to happen to the system? It will fall apart.

[DanieMarie]

Re: Basic income

Right, and its on my side of the fence that there will always be more people looking for benefits than paying for them -- especially those on the cusp where they do about the same working as they do not working. The better the "free"benefits are, the less incentive there is to work. Some people have the ethics that they don't want something for nothing, but human nature is slanted the other way. We are HAPPY to take something for nothing, but in a society that just doesn't work.

If robots are cleaning our toilets, and only the most skilled are working, what's going to happen to the system? It will fall apart.

Yep. I don't think such a system even leaves enough jobs for those who -want- to work. Especially when we export so many manufacturing jobs. Heck, even knowledge work gets outsourced. If you're a programmer starting out, you're competing with people in India. We already struggle with this stuff now, imagine if we made the step to just automate everything.

Also, there are a few other things at hand there. I think we already could automate more than we do (and at an affordable price) but there are a few issues at hand:
-Some people -do- have the foresight to realize that we still need to employ people in order for the system to work.
-Mostly though, market research indicates that most people actually prefer to be served by real people and have real people fix and make things for them. Sometimes it doesn't matter, like when the people who do those jobs are invisible and don't have any contact with customers, but where customers are involved, the vast majority of the population prefers to deal with human beings. This is why self-checkout hasn't completely replaced cashiers. Stores -could- replace all cashiers with self-checkout and leave a few people around for security purposes and to assist when problems pop up, but they don't, because while some people enjoy the self-checkout, a lot of people do not and want real people to ring through their purchases. McDonalds tested self-service ordering here, but it didn't stick...people simply didn't like it and wanted to order from a human being. a lot of airlines are doing away with check-in and customers HATE IT. My facebook feed is full of whining about it (I have a lot of friends who fly a lot) and their twitter feeds/article comments/etc are full of complaints. You know what? I hate it too. It's fine if you just want to drop off your bags (there was already a service for that that let you check in online and drop off your bags at the airport), but gods forbid you actually have a question or problem (like you want to inform the airline about an allergy or your luggage is slightly overweight)....it will take you forever to deal with it.

Edit: I should probably be more specific. A lot of people do like self-service and lots of people want more of it, but people also like the choice to deal with a real person. In cases where that has been removed (like Air Canada) it results in a lot of complaints, which leads me to believe that you can't automate things completely because some people will always prefer to deal with a real person.

[Evaine]

Re: Basic income

I think one thing that has been missed in this debate is the amount of work which is already being done for free to make society a better place. I'm talking about the volunteers in charity shops, or for local Wildlife Trusts cutting bracken or looking for dormice, or running the local Fairtrade group or being a school governor - there are so many things that people do to make society work more smoothly that are not paid jobs. Maybe a basic income for everyone would encourage more people to do those sorts of jobs.
And the volunteering even extends to cleaning toilets. Here on the Welsh Borders, our local County Councils are closing the public toilets that they run. A village near where I live has got together a group to keep their toilets open, to keep them clean and well-maintained on a voluntary basis so that tourists continue to come and use the canoeing and walking facilities in the area. In my own village, the mayor stood up in a public meeting and vowed that the toilets would stay open if he had to go in with a scrubbing brush himself - and I believe him when he says he'll do that.
In a way, we already have a basic income as we pay benefits to people who need them, and we are supporting a huge number of people for whom jobs are not available, as well as disabled people who are unable to work (though our present government would, it seems, rather see those people homeless and hungry as they roll back benefits). Changing to a basic income system would not be too much of a leap to organise, and it would also free up people who are supposed to be spending their time applying for jobs that don't exist to do all that other work that would help local communities.