Arming teachers in Utah

[Maria de Luna]

Re: Arming teachers in Utah

Bad idea.

Teachers are not trained cops, or trained military.

In a mess up, expect them to behave just like you would - panic.

Either they will shoot when they shouldn't, or not shoot when they should.

If you want armed guards in schools, get professionals. Stop expecting teachers to save the world from itself.

We got too much crap to deal with already.

You really want ME wandering around a school with a gun? If so, you're dumber than you look (not directed at anybody in particular...).

P.S. We have a plan in place. I'm not allowed to give details, but it is similar to what Masked suggests - get the kids to safety, and duck while the highly trained professionals do what they have been highly trained to do.

Agreed. While I have no problem with trained professionals with guns in schools for their safety, (i went to a city school and we had 3 cops permanently assigned inside of our school who had offices at the entrances/exits) Teachers are NOT cops... they are teachers... They are not even security guards, which present their own problems, these people are getting what, an 8 hour class on gun handling and use... then thrown in a room with a pile of young-uns who know they have a gun.... Bad plan if you ask me... just waiting for more and stupider tragedies.

[Yorin]

Re: Arming teachers in Utah

From the article, it doesn't sound to me like these particular schools are mandating that they should be armed-it was part of a program that they're attempting to put in place, and those that felt comfortable with it volunteered-which to me is a lot better option. I'd rather have a teacher who's already been around guns and is more comfortable around them armed to protect students, than some scared teacher who only has one "just in case" because the school told them to.

However, another option that places have and no one utilizes is the military. We're constantly talking about "bringing our troops home" but when they are, they have NOTHING to do (as I got to listen to my husband whine about lol). He said at one point when talks of this were coming up, that he didn't know a single soldier who wouldn't volunteer to have his day spent making sure that whatever school was safe. Even if it was just taking the time for 3-5 people to be there as schools were getting in or leaving and maybe one or two through the day to stick around and make sure that shit didn't happen.

We already pay the military their salaries and whatnots so we wouldn't need an extra budget for it. It would actually help the job issue of "well.....they're home....now what the hell do we do with them". Then you'd have people who ARE trained and know what they're doing making sure the kids are safe.

[MaskedOne]

Re: Arming teachers in Utah

Military may work with National Guard units. Using Federal units may require a modification of

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_Act

or at least a Congressional exclusion. It is an interesting concept. I have no idea on practicality.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Arming teachers in Utah

From the article, it doesn't sound to me like these particular schools are mandating that they should be armed-it was part of a program that they're attempting to put in place, and those that felt comfortable with it volunteered-which to me is a lot better option. I'd rather have a teacher who's already been around guns and is more comfortable around them armed to protect students, than some scared teacher who only has one "just in case" because the school told them to.

I'll tell ya something. I'm VERY comfortable around guns. With a good rifle, I can pierce you ear at 200 yards.

However, that is very, very, very different from being comfortable shooting human beings during a chaotic situation - the two things don't even track. It's like comparing climbing stairs to scaling Mt. Everest.

A major problem I see is that people don't seem to understand the difference between those two things.

How long, and in what way, are the police trained to do that?

How long, and in what way, are soldiers trained to do that?

And even with all that specialized training, both police and soldiers still screw up.

[Yorin]

Re: Arming teachers in Utah

The only problem with the National Guard idea is that we would have to seriously rebudget the military funds as currently they only get paid for the days they serve (Aka, going through basic and AIT plus the one weekend a month) which isn't a lot. Active duty soldiers though get paid a salary anyways that instead of having them mull around on a base, we could tell them "hey, go to _____ school and make sure nothing bad happens to the kids"

Though I think modifying that act a bit might be a lot smoother of a transition than trying to do a whole new budget, as it's been quite noted that we rather fail at doing that within a reasonable time or manner

[MaskedOne]

Re: Arming teachers in Utah

I have very few problems modifying Posse Comitaus to allow for what you're thinking of. Politically it may be interesting. I'm not sure how the idea would be met in Congress.

[Heka]

Re: Arming teachers in Utah

1) lock the door
2) kill the lights
3) get your class low to the ground and silent

In Australia this is called a 'lock-down' or an 'invacuation'. If there is a threat to the school, eg bomb, man with a knife/gun/flame thrower (because all these things are illegal) a siren goes off, the police are called by the siren and teachers lock doors, turn off lights, get kids away from windows and doors and make the classroom seem empty, stopping the classroom from being a target to intruders.

Bad idea.

Teachers are not trained cops, or trained military.

In a mess up, expect them to behave just like you would - panic.

Either they will shoot when they shouldn't, or not shoot when they should.

If you want armed guards in schools, get professionals. Stop expecting teachers to save the world from itself.

We got too much crap to deal with already.

You really want ME wandering around a school with a gun? If so, you're dumber than you look (not directed at anybody in particular...).

P.S. We have a plan in place. I'm not allowed to give details, but it is similar to what Masked suggests - get the kids to safety, and duck while the highly trained professionals do what they have been highly trained to do.

That's really interesting B. Are you a teacher too? I'm assuming this is for a gun-toting-madman case.

[Rae'ya]

Re: Arming teachers in Utah

I'm with MO and Corbin on this one.

And all I want to add is...

What happens when the threat is a student?

[MaskedOne]

Re: Arming teachers in Utah

I'm with MO and Corbin on this one.

And all I want to add is...

What happens when the threat is a student?

Part of the reason, I'm against using teachers as security with the one and only possible (and I'm not really fond of it but an argument can almost be made) exception being

"From the point this alarm sounds until you hear otherwise, nothing and no one crosses that threshold. You do not leave the room. You do not attempt to render aid if you hear something outside the door. You do not attempt to engage anyone in the hall under any circumstance. Your weapon's only purpose whatsoever is to insure that nothing crosses that very specific threshold. Deviating from this directive will result in you being criminally prosecuted if you are lucky. If you are not lucky then it may result in your death and the deaths of the children you are trying to protect. Clear? Good."*

Teachers attempting to play cop with a student shooter increases the odds that either
1) They'll not ID the actual shooter until after they get shot.
2) Mistake an innocent for the shooter and kill a kid who is not an actual threat.

There's just too many potential screw-ups waiting to happen. Unless you can simplify things to a very small list of responsibilities that are both useful enough to take the risk, simple enough to drill into people without a lot of training and sufficiently self contained that all of your armed amateurs are guaranteed not to stumble into and shoot the wrong people then leave armed response to people trained to be armed response.


*It occurs to me that this could be done by providing teachers with tasers and might actually be moderately functional without the same level of lethal risk that letting them carry real firearms involves. Sort of sucks if you have shooters working as a team but if you have multiple shooters operating at that level then you have a problem anyway.

Heka: yeah it's frequently a called a lockdown here too. I went through one years ago (the school itself was never entered but there was an issue nearby so we locked down till administration received word from the police). The main mod I want to lockdowns would be to have a monitor who can look at a screen, locate the shooter and guide police right to him. I don't like lockdowns without other factors involved because if you're dealing with someone familiar with the school then they know that not all those dark rooms are empty. It takes time (and probably ammo) to breach a locked room so if there are lit rooms then they'll go for what they expect to have targets first and every second wasted on an empty room is one that brings rescue closer but the room can still be breached given dedication and you're sort of stuck there praying that rescue arrives before they get through. If armed responders are in the school or within two minutes of it and there's a monitor that can't be easily found and that can precisely describe and place the aggressors for incoming police than I'm all for lock-down procedures. I'd just hate to be stuck waiting and hoping that back-up arrives before someone decides to breach whatever room I'm in.

[Heka]

Re: Arming teachers in Utah

Heka: yeah it's frequently a called a lockdown here too. I went through one years ago (the school itself was never entered but there was an issue nearby so we locked down till administration received word from the police). The main mod I want to lockdowns would be to have a monitor who can look at a screen, locate the shooter and guide police right to him. I don't like lockdowns without other factors involved because if you're dealing with someone familiar with the school then they know that not all those dark rooms are empty. It takes time (and probably ammo) to breach a locked room so if there are lit rooms then they'll go for what they expect to have targets first and every second wasted on an empty room is one that brings rescue closer but the room can still be breached given dedication and you're sort of stuck there praying that rescue arrives before they get through. If armed responders are in the school or within two minutes of it and there's a monitor that can't be easily found and that can precisely describe and place the aggressors for incoming police than I'm all for lock-down procedures. I'd just hate to be stuck waiting and hoping that back-up arrives before someone decides to breach whatever room I'm in.

That would require a school wide surveilance system though, which is hell expensive, and I know for a FACT that the government (I'm in a gov school) won't pay it. We've struggled to get new locks for the school after a few break ins! Our school is thankfully small enough that it wouldn't take long to find an intruder (only 120 kids)

[MaskedOne]

Re: Arming teachers in Utah

That would require a school wide surveilance system though, which is hell expensive, and I know for a FACT that the government (I'm in a gov school) won't pay it. We've struggled to get new locks for the school after a few break ins! Our school is thankfully small enough that it wouldn't take long to find an intruder (only 120 kids)

Yeah, expense is the migraine. Many of the public schools I've been in locally have significant pieces (namely the cameras, I don't think you absolutely need cams in rooms they'd be nice but good coverage of the halls plus reliable comm with teachers will manage) in play but there are several other districts in the area with less money and I have no idea what they've got.

[Heka]

Re: Arming teachers in Utah

Yeah, expense is the migraine. Many of the public schools I've been in locally have significant pieces (namely the cameras, I don't think you absolutely need cams in rooms they'd be nice but good coverage of the halls plus reliable comm with teachers will manage) in play but there are several other districts in the area with less money and I have no idea what they've got.

We don't have halls and corridors connecting classrooms, there's about 3 classrooms in a building, then 3 more in the next etc, but usually only one or two actual classes, so all our surveillance would be better served being external. And it means that if there was a threat, they couldn't just get in one entrance and have access to the whole school. But of course external surveillance (esp. with the current budgets) could be compromised quite easily.

[DanieMarie]

Re: Arming teachers in Utah

I wouldn't send my kids to a school with armed teachers. But, that wouldn't be legal here anyway.

- - - Updated - - -

Bad idea.

Teachers are not trained cops, or trained military.

In a mess up, expect them to behave just like you would - panic.

Either they will shoot when they shouldn't, or not shoot when they should.

If you want armed guards in schools, get professionals. Stop expecting teachers to save the world from itself.

We got too much crap to deal with already.

You really want ME wandering around a school with a gun? If so, you're dumber than you look (not directed at anybody in particular...).

P.S. We have a plan in place. I'm not allowed to give details, but it is similar to what Masked suggests - get the kids to safety, and duck while the highly trained professionals do what they have been highly trained to do.

Couldn't agree more.

[Shahaku]

Re: Arming teachers in Utah

I'm with MO on this.

Though, I will add, active shooter training is something I think, at this point, all teachers should be required to go through every year. We had to have active shooter training at the casino where I work, and the chances of a rural Iowa casino having an active shooter is pretty slim (could happen, but unlikely). If I can be required to go through that, then I definitely think teachers should be as well. The course teaches common sense things. Avoid, if you can't avoid anymore, do this, then this.

For instance. Lock yourself in a room. If they're outside the door, you're better off being next to it, than across the room. If you're next to the door (not in front of it, stupid) then when they come in, if they break through, you can either run (preferable) or try to overcome them, hit them on the head with a trash can, etc. If you're across the room, then your just making a target for yourself and you'll never have time to get at them or away. Make yourself a smaller target. Don't play dead. Because now they've taken to going around making sure people are actually dead, shooting them in the head, to increase they're kill count.

It's valuable training and I only had about an hour of it. A day of training a year to teach teachers how to handle these situations. It would be worth it.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Arming teachers in Utah

One thing that wan't mentioned, by the way is this...

In pretty much any scheme (with the possible exception of Masked's), you now have:

A. one or more criminal shooters in the school (but nobody knows how many, their age, or what they look like)
B. the police, maybe some police snipers, and who know how much else law enforcement personnel ready to pounce on the school for emergency action
C. an unknown number of unidentified teachers with guns roaming the halls
D. a bunch of scared kids, locations and appearances unknown

When A, B, C, and D come together all in the same place, police will be shooting teachers (who might be the shooters), teachers will be shooting police (who may be the shooters in para-military garb these wackos tend to like), the actual criminals will be shooting anybody (that's what the came for...), and if some scared kid or group of scared kids come screaming down the corridor, everybody will shoot at them, ' cause they might be the shooters. Or maybe nobody shoots at them 'cause they look like kids, but the actually ARE the shooters.

I find it hard to believe that local law enforcement would accept this as an "aid" to their work.

I see a bad moon risin'