Religious Misconceptions!

[ThorsSon]

Re: Religious Misconceptions!

I thought it might be fun to talk about things we assumed about other religions and then found to be incorrect. Most of these things are going to fall into stereotypes I assume, but we all have misconceptions about other groups of people at some point before we really get to know some of them .

I'm going to delete one word from your question, in order to answer it. (I removed the word "other")

I used to believe that the Bible was the literal, infallible, internally-consistent, historically-true word of God.

And I believed that the evidence supported this claim.

[Medusa]

Re: Religious Misconceptions!

I'm going to delete one word from your question, in order to answer it. (I removed the word "other")

I used to believe that the Bible was the literal, infallible, internally-consistent, historically-true word of God.

And I believed that the evidence supported this claim.

So what made you change your mind? For me, I never believed it. Not one bit. My Baptist Minister brother was debating with me the bible and said If I don't believe one thing in it, I cant believe it at all. I said 'ok'. I'm out. I'm an atheist. I was 15.

[Orecha]

Re: Religious Misconceptions!

You can be snarky or you can assume that as someone who is not a student of anthropology and religious studies that I'm inviting you to elaborate on the scientific definition of Paganism and what characteristics of Mazdaic religions place them within that classification. One of these choices is educational to those of us who are not you and moderately productive for the forum at large. The other is a mildly entertaining waste of everyone's time. I don't particularly care which choice you make because the topic is at best a side curiosity to me but I'm of the general opinion that one should not be a general nuisance by accident so I thought I'd explain the decision before you go too much further with it.

I wasn't being snarky nor did I mean offense. As far as the definition of paganism, I was under the assumption that it had already sufficiently been discussed by others in this thread (as well as stated that this is not a thread about the definition of paganism), but I'm more than happy to elaborate when asked to do so.

Rowanwood's definition of a pagan as "a person holding religious beliefs other than those of the main world religions" is one of the better I've heard. Therefore, a paganism, or a pagan religion, is a religious tradition not directly classified with one of the major world religions. Unfortunately, it's a category defining what it is not as opposed to what it is. So now, it has to be asked, what is a world religion? Well, the definition is loosely any religion with over 5 million adherents. Despite the thousands of religions on the planet, there are only ten that make that list, all from only 3 religion families (religions are divided like languages, with roots and families):

• Sinic (~25,000,000)
  • Taoism
  • Confucianism
  
  
• Vedic (~1,356,000,000)
  • Hinduism
  • Buddhism
  • Jainism
  
  
• Abrahamic (~3,642,000,000)
  • Christianity
  • Islam
  • [Sikhism*]
  • Judaism
  • Baha'i

*Sikhism is a weird one phenotypically, but genotypically it is essentially Abrahamic with strong Vedic influences (though it's practitioners prefer to think of it as an isolate).

Modern paganism would therefore be a blanket term of sorts for most religions that isn't one of these listed above; however, modern paganism doesn't include currently extinct religions or most new religious movements (NRMs), who have their own classification (though certain Neopagan groups are sometimes considered NRMs). Modern paganism (from a scientific standpoint) breaks down as follows:

• Neopaganism (~1,000,000)
  • Esoteric
    
  • Syncretic (and Eclectic)
    • Contemporary Witchcraft (Wicca, Hedgecraft, etc.)
    • New Age
    • Goddess Movement
    • "Eclectic Reconstructionism"
  
  
• Ethnic Paganisms (~1,000,000,000)
  • Traditionalist
    • Pristine/Uncontacted/Isolated (like Sentinelese religion)
    • Contacted (most tribal religions of South America and Africa)
    • Diasporic (like Yoruba; also Traditional Diasporic Eclectic, like Vodou, Voodoo, and Santeria)
    • Modernized (like Shenism, Shinto, and Mazdaism)
    
    
  • Reconstructionist
    • Academic/Purist
    • Conjecturist
    • Revivalist

If you need more info or any clarification, let me know. I was simply trying not to get too far off topic, and like many specialists, I unfortunately have the curse of assuming that something is simple when it may not be readily and easily understood by those outside of the field.

- - - Updated - - -

[...]If I don't believe one thing in it, I cant believe it at all.[...]

That's... wow. He would have a field day with me!
Out of curiosity, what was the "one thing," if it was indeed just one?

[ThorsSon]

Re: Religious Misconceptions!

So what made you change your mind? For me, I never believed it. Not one bit. My Baptist Minister brother was debating with me the bible and said If I don't believe one thing in it, I cant believe it at all. I said 'ok'. I'm out. I'm an atheist. I was 15.

Finally being intellectually honest, finally being honest with myself, and stopping compartmentalizing things.

I think that it was finally understanding evolution, rather than the straw-man of evolution that Christian apologists prop up, that opened my eyes... but I can't say that for sure, because there wasn't an a-ha moment, it was a gradual process that took me to atheism.

It was realizing that evolution is true and seeing that the Bible is FAR from perfect and internally consistent that took me from Christianity.

The Christian apologists that I was exposed to at an early age screwed up big-time, if they wanted to keep me around, by driving home the idea that Creationism is the very foundation of the Christian faith and that evolution completely undermines it, if it is true... they even showed a cartoon video of the Evil Evolutionists firing cannons at the foundations of the Castle of Christianity... with two alternate endings a)if evolution is true: the castle crumbles and the Christians fall over the cliff that it is on (to their death, I assume) b)if evolution is false: the cannon balls bounce harmlessly away, and the atheists come live in the castle (becoming Christians, I assume).

Once I realized that evolution is true, I realized that the apologists were right... if evolution is true, then Biblical Creationism is false. The Bible can't be 100% true. And so I started looking for other contradictions (fully convinced I would find none... boy was I wrong)

That convinced me that Christianity was not right... but I hadn't completely let go of the supernatural.

So I found Paganism, and then jumped with both feet into Heathenry, because it seemed to make sense, while allowing room for science to also be right.

Then I came to realize that science and reason do just fine on their own, without any need to call on the supernatural.

So, I was about 12 years behind you... 27 (or so) when I realized and admitted to myself that I am an atheist.

[MaskedOne]

Re: Religious Misconceptions!

Orecha:

This is actually one of the more clear-cut breakdowns that I've seen and having a straightforward definition for world religion does help.

So does this mean that if say, Wicca grew to over 5 million participants then it'd cease to class as Pagan?

If this becomes too much of a derail then I'll break it off from this thread but you've managed to catch my interest now.

[Orecha]

Re: Religious Misconceptions!

So does this mean that if say, Wicca grew to over 5 million participants then it'd cease to class as Pagan?

Hypothetically, it could be classed as a world religion at that point, but it really depends on how academia defines Wicca. Most in the field of religion see Wicca as primarily a modern paganism, being under the subcategory of Neopaganism, despite also being a new religious movement, but there are many in the field who classify Wicca and all other Neopagan groups as primarily NRMs and, therefore, only marginally "pagan" by the anthropological definition. Until it actually reaches that 5 million point, we can only argue the hypotheticals, but there are two primary possibilities:

1. Wicca is automatically classified as a world religion, breaking away from paganism as anthropology defines it.
2. Wicca is classified as a new religious movement (frankly, the most likely), and like other NRMs who have exceeded the 5 million mark, it will not become a world religion until it stands the test of time, as has happened with Baha'i. Baha'i is almost 170 years old with 7 million adherents, but it seems that it was that 150 year mark that made it become a world religion. Even now, though, it is still often classified as an NRM by older scholars.

At current growth rates (which are really hard to pin down due to multiple variables), Wicca may hit the 5 million mark by 2050. It will hit the 150 year mark in 2104. So it may become a world religion somewhere in that 50 year range. Only time will tell. Growth rate stagnation, persecution, and changes in religious and cultural trending could all contribute to the 5 million mark being much further down the timeline.

Regardless of when it happens, based on the history of other religions, Wicca would more than likely begin to solidify at that size with some international structure, canonical scripture, and (stronger) denominational divisions. This would make it a much more organized religion, which would probably drive some individual and more anarchic practitioners away. Over time, it will become more ecclesiastical, with covens becoming like churches and movements like denominations. This is a normal evolutionary development which would cause a shift from what Martin Buber called "religiosity" (a fluid state of evolving and developing faith traditions) to "religion" (a solid, structured organization with rigid boundaries). What it means to actually be Wiccan would also seriously begin to change. To borrow a bit comedically from Christianity, you'd end up with the Book of Shadows thumpers, the back-seat British Traditionals, and the Samhain & Yule Wiccans. On the other hand, Wicca would be more public and become more accepted. It will be able to attract more members, thereby even further increasing growth rate. So there are as many benefits to not becoming a world religion as there are to becoming one. It will depend on what the community wants for its future.

[LuThorgh]

Re: Religious Misconceptions!

I used to think most Pagans were very...eh..spiritual hippies. But I've found them to be some of the most sane and logical thinkers I've had the pleasure to know. They see things in an outside of the box sort of way. I had no idea about Pagans until I came here. I had no idea what to expect.

This was largely my viewpoint before I even chose to be a pagan. My mother, oddly enough, was more into this stuff then I was. I ashamedly admit I used to chastise her for thinking the way she did.(to me it seemed out there) She was into new-age philosophy, which I still sort of dislike, if only because it seems like a movement made to, well, sell books, and I think a person should research and familiarize themselves from older, more accurate sources, not what some self-appointed "expert" on neo-shamanism tells you what you should think and do.

But nevertheless, I was an atheist and although I tolerated her to a point, any time she'd go off about astral projection and time-traveling in one's sleep, I'd promptly change the subject or walk out of the room.

It wasn't until I had a religious experience with mother nature(which admittedly was induced with a little help from the Peruvian Torch cactus, which I kind of took to have a religious experience anyway), that I started to open my mind to new possibilities, and viewpoints.

[thalassa]

Re: Religious Misconceptions!

The Christian apologists that I was exposed to at an early age screwed up big-time, if they wanted to keep me around, by driving home the idea that Creationism is the very foundation of the Christian faith and that evolution completely undermines it, if it is true... they even showed a cartoon video of the Evil Evolutionists firing cannons at the foundations of the Castle of Christianity... with two alternate endings a)if evolution is true: the castle crumbles and the Christians fall over the cliff that it is on (to their death, I assume) b)if evolution is false: the cannon balls bounce harmlessly away, and the atheists come live in the castle (becoming Christians, I assume).

Intellectually, I know that this is true and this happens (heck, I've met these people as an adult)...but, there is just part of me--I just can't fathom it. It is SO FAR from how I was raised. I actually didn't know that there were really people out there that didn't accept the Theory of Evolution until I was in high school. I thought it was some Scopes-era historical nonsense (I mean, its not like kids chill on the playground talking Darwin vs the Bible in the 6th grade or anything...and most of my friends were liberally educated and non-religious or in more progressive or liberal religions...or Catholic, which accepts evolution). It wasn't until my freshman year of high school that this girl was in my honors biology class, shocked, because in her years of homeschooling, she had only ever been taught that evolution was The Devil...and I actually thought she was joking at first, trying to be funny. Heck, we had a lesson in my confirmation class, no less, on what insights we could gain from evolution, on a spiritual level.

[Malflick]

Re: Religious Misconceptions!

Intellectually, I know that this is true and this happens (heck, I've met these people as an adult)...but, there is just part of me--I just can't fathom it. It is SO FAR from how I was raised. I actually didn't know that there were really people out there that didn't accept the Theory of Evolution until I was in high school. I thought it was some Scopes-era historical nonsense (I mean, its not like kids chill on the playground talking Darwin vs the Bible in the 6th grade or anything...and most of my friends were liberally educated and non-religious or in more progressive or liberal religions...or Catholic, which accepts evolution). It wasn't until my freshman year of high school that this girl was in my honors biology class, shocked, because in her years of homeschooling, she had only ever been taught that evolution was The Devil...and I actually thought she was joking at first, trying to be funny. Heck, we had a lesson in my confirmation class, no less, on what insights we could gain from evolution, on a spiritual level.

^ THIS. Though it did start cropping up in High School. I had a Biology teacher who started telling us we didn't have to believe evolution... Ugh.

[thalassa]

Re: Religious Misconceptions!

^ THIS. Though it did start cropping up in High School. I had a Biology teacher who started telling us we didn't have to believe evolution... Ugh.

Now...THAT is INSANE to me. With two exceptions, my science teachers in high school were all professional scientists in their field that went into teaching out of zeal for science...only one of them didn't have a master's degree in the science they were teaching (he had a PhD). Granted, I'm sure there are persons with bio degrees out there that don't believe in evolution (Ken Ham) but, its usually fairly difficult to do graduate work work in biology without *some* acceptance of it. As Dobzhansky said...nothing in biology makes sense, except in the light of evolution.

[Orecha]

Re: Religious Misconceptions!

I actually didn't know that there were really people out there that didn't accept the Theory of Evolution until I was in high school.

Same here, and even then, it was sporadic. Then there were more in college (some from surprising sources). But it wasn't until I was out of college and had to join the ignorant masses in the job force that I encountered large numbers of those who didn't "believe" in evolution, like it was some deity or superstitious mumbo-jumbo they were choosing to ignore. I would say that this has been my biggest misconception about various religions: that there was anyone who ACTUALLY was aware of science and choose to actively ignore it. I just assumed the people who didn't support evolution had not received a proper education or had a really low IQ.

Another misconception that I've had in my life: Jews are the direct descendants -- spiritually, culturally, etc. -- of the ancient Israelites. Not true, no matter how much I wanted to believe it in my younger days. My life in college would have been so much easier if I had just admitted that earlier... It only took 20-something years to come to that conclusion.

[thalassa]

Re: Religious Misconceptions!

I would say that this has been my biggest misconception about various religions: that there was anyone who ACTUALLY was aware of science and choose to actively ignore it. I just assumed the people who didn't support evolution had not received a proper education or had a really low IQ.

Honestly though (and this is probably my bias as a person with a degree in biology, knowing and working with people with bio degrees or degrees that require a good deal of biology) I've yet to meet more than one or two people with an thorough post-high school education in science that rejects evolution thoroughly. But, there are plenty of folks that manage to reconcile evolution (or the big bang, etc) with their religious beliefs. Which brings up another stereotype--that scientists are a bunch of atheists.


I think the other shocker to me was when I started meeting Pagans that didn't accept evolution as a scientific theory. WTF dudes?

[Yorin]

Re: Religious Misconceptions!

\But, there are plenty of folks that manage to reconcile evolution (or the big bang, etc) with their religious beliefs.

You posted this, and I immediately thought of this picture I had saved lol

[ThorsSon]

Re: Religious Misconceptions!

Intellectually, I know that this is true and this happens (heck, I've met these people as an adult)...but, there is just part of me--I just can't fathom it. It is SO FAR from how I was raised. I actually didn't know that there were really people out there that didn't accept the Theory of Evolution until I was in high school. I thought it was some Scopes-era historical nonsense (I mean, its not like kids chill on the playground talking Darwin vs the Bible in the 6th grade or anything...and most of my friends were liberally educated and non-religious or in more progressive or liberal religions...or Catholic, which accepts evolution). It wasn't until my freshman year of high school that this girl was in my honors biology class, shocked, because in her years of homeschooling, she had only ever been taught that evolution was The Devil...and I actually thought she was joking at first, trying to be funny. Heck, we had a lesson in my confirmation class, no less, on what insights we could gain from evolution, on a spiritual level.

I was already doubting my faith, when I finally opened myself up to the possibility that evolution might have merits... Creationism and faith were so intertwined that I COULDN'T even entertain the IDEA of evolution... I used to distinguish between "adaptation" and "evolution" (like they are separate things... some creationists say "micro-evolution" and "macro-evolution")... because it is impossible to deny that adaptation happens... I used to say things like "It is provable that horses used to be 3 feet tall and have 3 toes... you can look at the fossil record, and you can see the vestigial toes on their forelegs... but that is ADAPTATION! They are still HORSES! They haven't become a new SPECIES!"

I was an idiot... an indoctrinated idiot, but still an idiot.

Thankfully I got over it.

[Juniper]

Re: Religious Misconceptions!

You posted this, and I immediately thought of this picture I had saved lol

[ATTACH=CONFIG]2835[/ATTACH]

I think I would have liked this picture better without the text in the box. XD I like having things left to my imagination.