an it harm none : meat eater, vegetarian, or vegan?

[Rowanwood]

Re: an it harm none : meat eater, vegetarian, or vegan?

I completely disagree with this. I spend less money as a vegetarian, than I did as a meat-eater, and even when I was vegan, I still had lots of energy. I've been vegetarian for several years, and I'm an endurance cyclist, a runner, and a mountaineer. I get plenty of protein from nuts, seeds, eggs, beans and legumes, quinoa, nut butters, and oats. I get plenty of iron from leafy green veggies, and plenty of b-vitamins from fermented foods. My diet is complete. And I am perfectly happy without meat. I don't miss it.

I'm always happy to hear when it works for someone.

I think we need to remember that all bodies and systems aren't the same however. I didn't miss meat as a vegetarian, but I was floppy and gained a lot of weight.

But when I eat meat, I'm so much healthier, even just emotionally.

I think personal decisions on what to eat are very emotionally charged, and we need to respect that we might all have different paths to take.

[volcaniclastic]

Re: an it harm none : meat eater, vegetarian, or vegan?

I'm always happy to hear when it works for someone.

I think we need to remember that all bodies and systems aren't the same however. I didn't miss meat as a vegetarian, but I was floppy and gained a lot of weight.

But when I eat meat, I'm so much healthier, even just emotionally.

I think personal decisions on what to eat are very emotionally charged, and we need to respect that we might all have different paths to take.

Of course. Meat makes me really sick - I've got digestive issues. So being vegetarian is a good choice for me. I agree it's not for everyone. I just wanted to prove that the assumption that all vegetarians are unhealthy/low energy isn't true.

[MoonRaven]

Re: an it harm none : meat eater, vegetarian, or vegan?

A point or two on nutrition in this case from my old school nurse. what she said was: "No one below the age of 15 should be a vegetarian and no one below 20 a vegan. The risk of malnutrition is simply too high while you're still growing. After that, suit yourself."

[thalassa]

Re: an it harm none : meat eater, vegetarian, or vegan?

I do want to mention one other thing...on an environmental level, veganism being carried out to thing like cosmetic products, clothing, and other durable goods, isn't necessairly "better". Often those products then have synthetic ingredients and components. When u say no to a wool coat or leather in shoes, its often replaced with product6 from fossil fuels. Also, mineral oils and parafin, as opposed to beeswax. And sure, there are botanical ois and waxes...but even then there's no such thing as harmless...just ask the orangutan, whose home forests have been decimated for palm plantations (for palm wax, which is often billed as sustainable and/or organic--which is technically accurate based on the farming method, no matter that a cople hundred acres of native forest were bulldozed to make way for the farm).

IMO...consumer choices have to be made on a product by product basis if you are looking to minimize harm.

[Gleb]

Re: an it harm none : meat eater, vegetarian, or vegan?

I must say the whole topic is complicated. One can consume only milk-products and other non-meat things and get the full pleasure. But by getting rid of meat, a person also gets rid of all of the things that meat contains and can't be replaced by other products. Does it worth it?

[SleepingCompass]

Re: an it harm none : meat eater, vegetarian, or vegan?

"Im considering the phrase 'an it harm none' And its correlation to food."
...
"Are you vegetarian/vegan? Or do you eat meat.? Opinions please"

As others have said, it all comes down to your personal opinion and how your own body works. Some people just can't be vegatarian or vegan for health reasons.

On that note, I've been a vegetarian for many years now, and I've had no health problems relating to that decision. The thought of some other creature having suffereded and died so that I can eat a burger has always bothered me so as soon as I went to college for the first time and had more control over my own food, I stoped eating meat.

I don't go arround trying to force others to eat the way I do; its a personal choice, but its not one I have regreted. If you do decide to go this route, you should do some research into it first. There are substitutes for nutrients you can normaly only get from meat, but you're probably going to have to force yourself to eat them so that your body isn't missing out on anything essential.

Flax seeds have the omega 3 (I think thats what its called) fatty oil thing in it that you normally could only get from meat. Honey also has something in it that you can normally only get from meat (what that is escapes me at the moment). Leafy vegies for iron and beans and soy for protein are also very important.

Good luck on whatever you decide is the right path for you

[Medusa]

Re: an it harm none : meat eater, vegetarian, or vegan?

This thread makes me hungry

[anubisa]

Re: an it harm none : meat eater, vegetarian, or vegan?

I'm a meat eater. Our ancestors ate meat and I simply don't find it wrong to eat meat. I think as long as we treat animals right before we kill them and before we eat them then that would relate towards the 'an it harm none' law in my point.

[Medusa]

Re: an it harm none : meat eater, vegetarian, or vegan?

You know when this topic pops up I always want to remind people that in nature there are those animals that eat meat. Lots of it. They kill animals every single day. It's part of nature to eat it. It's part of nature not to. I doubt the lion is concerned with the moral aspects of it all.

[Rae'ya]

Re: an it harm none : meat eater, vegetarian, or vegan?

I do want to mention one other thing...on an environmental level, veganism being carried out to thing like cosmetic products, clothing, and other durable goods, isn't necessairly "better". Often those products then have synthetic ingredients and components. When u say no to a wool coat or leather in shoes, its often replaced with product6 from fossil fuels. Also, mineral oils and parafin, as opposed to beeswax. And sure, there are botanical ois and waxes...but even then there's no such thing as harmless...just ask the orangutan, whose home forests have been decimated for palm plantations (for palm wax, which is often billed as sustainable and/or organic--which is technically accurate based on the farming method, no matter that a cople hundred acres of native forest were bulldozed to make way for the farm).

IMO...consumer choices have to be made on a product by product basis if you are looking to minimize harm.

I very much agree with this. Palm oil in particular is the big one, as it is the main ingredient in a lot of vegan soaps and cosmetics and is endorsed by several organic and vegan organisations. But a large proportion of the worlds palm oil is not sourced from sustainably farmed plantations, but from rainforests. So while there may be no animal products in it, it still has a negative impact on animal populations.

The other thing to think about is the negative environmental impacts of large scale vegetable production, and particularly grain production. Someone mentioned earlier about the animal life that is killed during harvesting, which is true, but is just one part of the impact that this sort of farming and harvesting has on the local ecosystems. In some cases, plant based materials are actually causing more 'harm' to the wider picture than animal materials.

I also want to add about organic and free range. I am a huge proponent of free-range and I absolutely refuse to buy eggs or meat that is not free range. However, I do that with the knowledge that for the most part, those animals are still slaughtered in the same abattoirs that other animals are... so while they may live better, they don't necessarily die with any less suffering. But there are many abattoirs who are not as bad as what PETA and their ilk would like us to think. This ties us back to things like subsistence hunting and growing your own meat, which is probably a topic for a different thread but which is still relevant. A hunted deer that was killed with one shot has far less 'harm' wrapped up in it than a free range organic beef cow who was slaughtered at an abattoir. And don't even get me started on the suffering of fish when they are caught and slaughtered.

So when you are involving morality in it, the decision is (and should be) a complex one.

- - - Updated - - -

I completely disagree with this. I spend less money as a vegetarian, than I did as a meat-eater, and even when I was vegan, I still had lots of energy. I've been vegetarian for several years, and I'm an endurance cyclist, a runner, and a mountaineer. I get plenty of protein from nuts, seeds, eggs, beans and legumes, quinoa, nut butters, and oats. I get plenty of iron from leafy green veggies, and plenty of b-vitamins from fermented foods. My diet is complete. And I am perfectly happy without meat. I don't miss it.

I also want to second this. Some people find it difficult to be healthy as a vegatarian or vegan, but others don't. I have several vegetarian friends and they are all perfectly healthy and have just as much energy (if not more) than I do. So the whole 'vegans are unhealthy' is a complete myth. People who don't eat a balanced diet are unhealthy. But there are just as many meat eaters who suffer lack of energy as vegans.

The reality is that from a health perspective the majority of us could probably do with less meat in our diets, whether or not we chose to cut it out completely or not. Modern meat eaters often eat too much meat and not enough vegetables and roughage. Meat should not be the centrepiece of your meal, but that's how many of us tend to default. For some people, the overconsumption of meat is less healthy than not eating meat at all.

The reality is that we are all individuals. Vegetarianism or veganism is a valid health choice for some people. For others meat eating is a valid health choice. It all depends on how your individual system and lifestyle works.

[ChainLightning]

Re: an it harm none : meat eater, vegetarian, or vegan?

You know when this topic pops up I always want to remind people that in nature there are those animals that eat meat. Lots of it. They kill animals every single day. It's part of nature to eat it. It's part of nature not to. I doubt the lion is concerned with the moral aspects of it all.

Ooh! Moral aspects.






That's where I find a toehold on this question of both diet/nutrition and the "harm none" credo.

I may be way off base, and an unwelcome participant to the thread but, I feel that the birth of the Rede came as a more moral reaction to "Do as thou wilt, shall be the whole of the law." Both in that the 'an' it harm none' bit being vastly impractical and highly impossible (Save and protect the malignant tumors?) AND as if there were some social or cultural obligation that required every individual meet some unspecified moral code. I can't fathom that, myself.

Another is the claim that humans are designed for such and such a diet. No we're not. At best, humans are scavengers. But, to be perfectly accurate, it's better to say that humans are opportunists. That's "humans", not us. Not the civilized, intelligent, technologically-advanced and self-absorbed, self-aggrandizing PEOPLE... just the animal beneath our fashion accessoried and personal convenience-based facades.

We, as individuals, make the conscious decision of "what am I going to eat?" We make that decision for our offspring. And they make it for themselves, as soon as they're able (Can I haz candy?). If you want to be health-smart about your diet, discuss it with your doctor. If you want to be environmentally responsible, your doctor can't help much. If you want to be part of a diet- or nutritional-based subculture, discuss it with a dietician or other specialist.




And here's where "an it harm none" actually, seriously, comes into play. "Choose what YOU want to eat and let my choose my own. Don't try to shame me into eating YOUR decisions." Uh, that is, not that anyone here was trying to convert or otherwise shame anyone but that simply forcing that ideal onto someone else is social harm... rather.

[Shahaku]

Re: an it harm none : meat eater, vegetarian, or vegan?

I'm a meat eater. Our ancestors ate meat and I simply don't find it wrong to eat meat. I think as long as we treat animals right before we kill them and before we eat them then that would relate towards the 'an it harm none' law in my point.

I think one of the biggest issues vegetarians and vegans have, is that they can't be sure that this is the case. It most certaintly isn't if you're picking up a burger at the local fast food joint. Unless you're hunting/raising all your own meat (something I would actually like to do if it was practical) the animal usually isn't treated right through its life/death. There isn't really any respect for the animal in the commercial meat industry.

[Amunet]

Re: an it harm none : meat eater, vegetarian, or vegan?

I eat similar to OP; seafood, chicken and turkey. I cannot eat beef because it is just disgusting to me. Ew. That said, I have eaten reindeer before (ah Alaska) and liked it. If it tastes good, eat it ^_^

as for the rede, it is a good life philosophy. Do what you feel is the best. If you go vegan or vegetarian, keep an eye on your body. Your body is one of things you don't want to harm and you need your body to be healthy in all ways so you may be spiritually healthy too ^_^

[Threshold]

Re: an it harm none : meat eater, vegetarian, or vegan?

I have noticed I eat less meat the older I get. Just don't have as much of a taste for it. I get a craving once in a while.

I live nearly 100 miles from a city, and basically at home me and my partner are vegetarian, and we eat meat if we want it when we go to a restaurant in town.

I do consider the health aspect (and calorie) aspect of not eating very much meat, but I don't think it's the main thing.

I've also noticed that basically the only meat I crave is beef. I rarely if ever eat chicken or turkey (I do eat eggs) and avoid pork...just doesn't taste good to me the way it once did. I sometimes crave seafood as well. I'm guessing there is some dietary "need" that causes the craving?

I do make an effort to cook healthy, but that wasn't the main reason for not eating meat. It is why we eat high fiber, low fat, "good" fats, etc etc.

To me it's not a moral issue. Humans are among the many many creatures that hunt and eat meat. It's natural. It's commendable to try to do it as humanely and eco friendly as possible, as we should do in all our affairs.

[okoserce]

Re: an it harm none : meat eater, vegetarian, or vegan?

The topic of diet and spirituality are a common thread and I'm glad that it was asked.

We are omnivores and for a long period of time we subsisted very much based upon whatever we could get our hands on..sometimes this was large amounts of meat..sometimes not..We are generally wired to seek out sources of Fat, protein and carbs..there are also a host of micro-nutrients in our diet that are often best served with an omnivorous diet..(not impossible to do it via vegan or vegetarian but it does take more work)..but as a whole we do consume way more meat and to that end protein then our bodies actually need to function properly.

When it comes to the spiritual aspect, I agree with those above, death is just as natural as life..and should be treated and respected as such..something dies to give something else life and that something will eventually die and give life to something else..I do however believe that production of and consumption of food as well as the products we use on a regular basis should be done so as humanely as possible..You can not have a zero footprint but you can act in such a way to mitigate as much as possible..it's always a work in progress and something I'd love to pursue more of as a part of my spiritual path.