My experiences with UUism

[Ouranos Ouroboros]

Hello.


I wanted to post about my experiences with my local UU church. I see that there is a UU Q&A thread, but I wasn't sure if site rules would allow me to post there given that I'm not specifically asking or answering general questions about UUism. Anyway, sorry if I created any confusion by starting a new thread.


First off, a disclaimer: I am reporting personal experiences. I know that not all UU churches are like the one I attended. Indeed, the generally open nature of UUism is going to create a fairly high degree of variance from congregation to congregation (or fellowship to fellowship).


So... We started attending a local UU pagans' group (not a CUUPS chapter) over three years ago. We absolutely loved the group, and we've gained a number of incredible friends from that setting. We were a little naive and sort of entered a "puppy love" stage regarding the church. As my wife and I are both bi, we also started attending the LGBTQ group - and, again, it was wonderful (though, unfortunately, quite small). I facilitated several discussion, helped with rituals, did psychic readings for a fundraiser, helped with donations and doorprizes, wrote an essay for the church blog, started planning a class and gathering sponsors, and decided to become an official member.


That was when things became very disappointing. We started to see how pagans in the church were used to generate social and cultural capital - we were one of the token groups that the congregation of 75-80% atheists collected to improve their reputation. In fact, I was told that the church had been founded to protect the reputation of local atheist professors (the seven principles, which I admire and which are part of my pagan practice, were never mentioned). One of the church founders told our membership class that rituals are "silly" and "ridiculous". I was also disturbed by the fact that money was being misappropriated to - among other things - pay the minister, that criminal background checks were not being run on those who work with children there, that the church lacked a number of important procedures and rules (for instance, the minister has no confidentiality policy and has actually written that she doesn't feel she has the ability to use email well enough to keep any message that comes to her in confidence, no matter how private).


I'm in the American midwest, and I've been receiving emails from some pagans in various places (Missouri, Arkansas, Oklahoma, Vermont) who say that lots of pagans are leaving their local UU churches (or have been asked to leave). Is anyone else hearing about this or do you think it's just part of the normal flux of institutions? I'd love to hear about your experiences at other UUs; it doesn't matter to me if they've been positive or negative. Thanks in advance.

[feathered_regalia]

Re: My experiences with UUism

I've attended many churches, no UU's to add to your query, unfortunately for you, although, perhaps, fortunately for me. But I will offer my insight as to what I think of the matter, and what you've experienced is precisely the reason I disagree with institutionalizing any beliefs into a structure.

Inevitably, no matter the original intent, the end result is always the same. These religious groups cannot function without money. Therefore, they do what they can to generate revenue. They eventually forget or never held spirituality at the core of their ideals. They find that people who want to believe that good is at the heart of people everywhere make for really easy targets to garner "donations" and "collections", so they can continue their "charities" and the like. In reality, the majority of this revenue is pocketed to make the upper echelon lucrative sums of money. The charities are the front they use to convince people that they need the money, especially if these charities don't appear to have enough money to function at an ideal level. Because cons are illegal, but religion is fully protected and tax free, it makes it really easy to use religion to con the local populace. And they need people to believe in them devoutly because that's how they protect themselves, with their devout followers.

[thalassa]

Re: My experiences with UUism

So... We started attending a local UU pagans' group (not a CUUPS chapter) over three years ago. We absolutely loved the group, and we've gained a number of incredible friends from that setting. We were a little naive and sort of entered a "puppy love" stage regarding the church. As my wife and I are both bi, we also started attending the LGBTQ group - and, again, it was wonderful (though, unfortunately, quite small). I facilitated several discussion, helped with rituals, did psychic readings for a fundraiser, helped with donations and doorprizes, wrote an essay for the church blog, started planning a class and gathering sponsors, and decided to become an official member.


That was when things became very disappointing. We started to see how pagans in the church were used to generate social and cultural capital - we were one of the token groups that the congregation of 75-80% atheists collected to improve their reputation. In fact, I was told that the church had been founded to protect the reputation of local atheist professors (the seven principles, which I admire and which are part of my pagan practice, were never mentioned). One of the church founders told our membership class that rituals are "silly" and "ridiculous". I was also disturbed by the fact that money was being misappropriated to - among other things - pay the minister, that criminal background checks were not being run on those who work with children there, that the church lacked a number of important procedures and rules (for instance, the minister has no confidentiality policy and has actually written that she doesn't feel she has the ability to use email well enough to keep any message that comes to her in confidence, no matter how private).


I'm in the American midwest, and I've been receiving emails from some pagans in various places (Missouri, Arkansas, Oklahoma, Vermont) who say that lots of pagans are leaving their local UU churches (or have been asked to leave). Is anyone else hearing about this or do you think it's just part of the normal flux of institutions? I'd love to hear about your experiences at other UUs; it doesn't matter to me if they've been positive or negative. Thanks in advance.

This isn't a thing here. The Pagan group at the UU congregation we go to has been active for longer than the UU congregation has been around--they were pretty instrumental in founding the congregation, and their leaders also lead services not just at this congregation, but other local ones as well. I'd say that its a pretty even split in our congregation--about 25% Pagan, 25% Abrahamic, 25% non-specific deity believing, 25% atheist or agnostic.

I'm pretty sure that failing to do background checks is against the UUA's policy...I'd be looking into that if I were a member. But...I'm not sure how paying the minister is a misappropriation of funds--in our congregation, the minister gets paid, as does the Director for Religious Education, and the music director, and the child care workers. Congregation members vote on their salary at the annual meeting. They certainly aren't getting rich (our minster could have made better money in his prior career as a physics professor), and half of all church offerings go to non-church affiliated public charities such as Planned Parenthood, a local homeless shelter, Sierra Club, etc (the other half goes to the congregation's general fund, which pays for things like the building and the land it sits on, the staff salaries, the electricity, the water bill, maintenance and repair of the building and its grounds, insurance, etc---all of which is reported to the congregation, and easily available to inquiring minds).

Don't get me wrong, I've been to UU congregations that were NOT a good fit...too Christian, too Atheist, even one that was too Buddhist! I think the hubby and I have now attended about 9 different congregations's services now...and we've found only one that we loved (but its fairly long drive) and one we like strongly (thought not as much, except its only 10 min away).

[Maria de Luna]

Re: My experiences with UUism

Monetary (and issues arrising from it) are why I left the protestant church I grew up in. Church policy became about the money rather than the spiritual well being of the members. The church did some good things for the community, but when I got into it and was deep in the nitty gritty it was a massive crisis of faith for me....

Have to be honest, the pastors at institutions like these have to have had schooling, and do ministerial work, and visit sick people and it is their JOB, and they totally deserve to be paid for that. The lack of background checks disturbs me though, as I think that may even be a legal issue. I wouldn't personally blame the pastor for her inability to use email, my mom can't use email, and she has to do it for her job too, it just doesn't make sense for some people....


Nitty gritty stuff like money allows these institutions to function. They have to be able to generate it, it is just a fact of life, (strangely one I have noticed a few pagans take exception with, which is fine, it just means you don't get the big institutions.) The opinions being expressed by the professor are opinions and they should not be taught, but I wonder what he thinks going to church of any kind is, if not a ritual....

It seems like the idea behind a group like this may be appealing but you have just not found the one that fits you... is there another option nearby?
If not, see if the pagan group has any independant activities outside of the scope of the UU fellowship, they might, and that may be enough for you. IOr maybe membership in this organization is just not for y'all and you need to find something else.... I don't know, but I am sorry to hear you had such a poor experience of the process.

[feathered_regalia]

Re: My experiences with UUism

Monetary (and issues arrising from it) are why I left the protestant church I grew up in. Church policy became about the money rather than the spiritual well being of the members. The church did some good things for the community, but when I got into it and was deep in the nitty gritty it was a massive crisis of faith for me....

Have to be honest, the pastors at institutions like these have to have had schooling, and do ministerial work, and visit sick people and it is their JOB, and they totally deserve to be paid for that. The lack of background checks disturbs me though, as I think that may even be a legal issue. I wouldn't personally blame the pastor for her inability to use email, my mom can't use email, and she has to do it for her job too, it just doesn't make sense for some people....


Nitty gritty stuff like money allows these institutions to function. They have to be able to generate it, it is just a fact of life, (strangely one I have noticed a few pagans take exception with, which is fine, it just means you don't get the big institutions.) The opinions being expressed by the professor are opinions and they should not be taught, but I wonder what he thinks going to church of any kind is, if not a ritual....

I'm going to respectfully present my opinion here, but I completely disagree. Being a minister is not a job. It is a lot of work. But it is not a solicited service. It cannot be taxed. There is no hourly rate. It is a volunteer, non-profit position. Many volunteer positions require previous training in order to qualify for them, such as volunteer EMS crews. People who volunteer are often-times supported by a spouse, or have a job without conflicting hours. But a minister oversees a congregation, then guilt-trips them into giving them money so they can continue their charity work. When they get more money than the charity needs to run even bare-bones, the excess is often pocketed. I've been inside of many preachers / elders / ministers homes. They live in far better conditions than their charities do. They often live at a higher monetary standard than members of their congregation. And they have always enjoyed showing off how well they live. I do not believe that a community should come together and give money to one person to oversee operations. I think if a community is serious about helping, then they should stop looking for the easy way out by throwing money at someone to do it for them, because that's a load off their conscience, and actually come together as a community and see what monetary resources they actually have available for the charities between them. The minister should serve as nothing more than the person who knows how much each charity needs to function, and where to prioritize the spending.

For those who do not have charities that they oversee, then I say shame on those ministers who believe people should pay someone else for something so personal as a spiritual experience. If people want to convene to practice their spirituality, then they can do so and pay for whatever they want to bring from the money they've earned in their normal, mundane lives. They shouldn't be coerced into giving up their hard-earned hours just so some person can stand up there and preach at them and infuse them with more guilt and less spirit if they don't remember to donate or contribute to the collection plate. Money has no spiritual value, therefore, it is not important to an institution as a spiritual product. Spiritual experiences don't need to take place in a church. What's stopping a group from getting together at a home or a quiet corner of a park? Members could pool together money to reserve locations for a few hours. The only purpose the maintaining of a church has ever consistently served is to pay the minister. Not everyone who goes to a church wants to be there, they've just been convinced that they have to be there. And why convince someone that they have to keep going if their heart's not in it? For money. Because there's certainly no spiritual welfare involved in that.

Now, that's not to say that I'm completely against churches. I'm just completely against how people use them. I don't think anyone is capable of running one responsibly. And the ones that can are too few and far between to make a lasting difference on how these institutions should be run.

[Maria de Luna]

Re: My experiences with UUism

This is where we will have to agree to disagree because I am entirely in favor of paid clergy. I even wish that is was logistically possible to have pagan paid clergy (It isn't really right now, without a really large group of people.)

A wedding officiant expects to be paid, a person preforming a birth ritual for your child generally expects to be paid. Any church expects the pastor to keep office hours. This should not be expected to be a volunteer job. It can be, but in a large enough congregation, (and many smaller ones, where the job of minister is NOT shared with anyone.) it is not feasible to expect people to volunteer to be pastors. (I have no experience with evangelical or baptist churches or organizations, so I can't speak to them.)
The church I grew up in maintained a manse (house) for the clergy, it was one guy, and it was located across the street from the church, he was expected to always be available, and he was not overly well paid (I currently make more than he did, and I am not well paid.) But literally anyone in the church congregation could show up at his door and expect to be seen by him, unless he wasn't home (man has to eat.)

Donations to the church go to the church. Period. There are committees in place which decide what sort of budget to write up for the church, and these committee members are voted on by tithing, (not always necessarily money giving.) MEMBERS of the church. The pay of the pastor is among the budget items. I should also mention that the pastor is not generally allowed to sit upon these committees as they are not generally considered members of the church.

A pastor's job is the spiritual well-being of their congregants. If a pastor (and I mean pastor, not and elder working what IS a voluntary position for the church.) is not doing their job, then, as in any other job, the congregants can have them fired, or removed, and replace them with someone else. This is much harder to do with volunteers.

I also have to make another point....

I do not believe that a community should come together and give money to one person to oversee operations.

What do you think a congress person is?

[Ektor]

Re: My experiences with UUism

Pardon me but what is UUism?

[feathered_regalia]

Re: My experiences with UUism

This is where we will have to agree to disagree because I am entirely in favor of paid clergy. I even wish that is was logistically possible to have pagan paid clergy (It isn't really right now, without a really large group of people.)

A wedding officiant expects to be paid, a person preforming a birth ritual for your child generally expects to be paid. Any church expects the pastor to keep office hours. This should not be expected to be a volunteer job. It can be, but in a large enough congregation, (and many smaller ones, where the job of minister is NOT shared with anyone.) it is not feasible to expect people to volunteer to be pastors. (I have no experience with evangelical or baptist churches or organizations, so I can't speak to them.)
The church I grew up in maintained a manse (house) for the clergy, it was one guy, and it was located across the street from the church, he was expected to always be available, and he was not overly well paid (I currently make more than he did, and I am not well paid.) But literally anyone in the church congregation could show up at his door and expect to be seen by him, unless he wasn't home (man has to eat.)

Donations to the church go to the church. Period. There are committees in place which decide what sort of budget to write up for the church, and these committee members are voted on by tithing, (not always necessarily money giving.) MEMBERS of the church. The pay of the pastor is among the budget items. I should also mention that the pastor is not generally allowed to sit upon these committees as they are not generally considered members of the church.

A pastor's job is the spiritual well-being of their congregants. If a pastor (and I mean pastor, not and elder working what IS a voluntary position for the church.) is not doing their job, then, as in any other job, the congregants can have them fired, or removed, and replace them with someone else. This is much harder to do with volunteers.

I also have to make another point....


What do you think a congress person is?

Overpaid. I don't agree with present standing governments, but I put up with them because I'm here. Even in the sort of church you described, there is still room for elitism. I said I wasn't against churches, but I still don't think it can be done without human fallacies. I've seen enough exploitation to know that what I've described does exist. Maybe your church is different. Congratulations. But you can still get married in City Hall, and that's a service you pay for and solicit. And I'm also against rituals for babies, btw. I don't believe it is right, all intentions aside, to make someone engage in a ritual when they are too young to understand what's going on. That further exemplifies taking advantage of a person's ignorance to perpetuate your own goals and ends. People expect to be paid for their services, yes, but I only believe in doing so when it's something you actually agree with. And I know from your post that you certainly wouldn't agree that any of those pagans in the OP were contributing money to be treated as a laughingstock.

Not everyone going to a church is there because they want to be. Many people get pressured into going or grew up in that religion and were never allowed to choose. That's sort of the origin of the modern church, coercion and guilt. I said I'm not against churches. What I'm against is the human fallacy of coercing others to attend a church to boost your standing within the congregation to gain influence, which can happen very easily in the type of church you described, or to gain more money, which is in the type of church I described. And both of those motives seem to describe the experience of the OP.

People by nature are greedy, social ladder climbers. Even taking out all the negatives that money-grasping brings to a church, then you're left with the social ladder of elitism. And even an elite group will spend the money on what will further their own interests, even if that means nothing more than getting re-elected to a position that makes them seem important. It's human instinct to be in the place where you feel most secure, and for some, ladder climbing is just where it's at.

A minister could easily be a volunteer position. Especially if it was an office held by multiple members. If congress is good enough for democracy, why not institutionalized theism? All I'm saying is it's possible to have a spiritual experience without all the stress and drama that a church can bring. I've always found that wherever people gather, there's going to be drama and there's going to be people who are cut out of the loop. I guarantee your church is not free of those people. That's just how people treat each other. And I guarantee those people that feel cut out and feel voiceless are not having the same spiritual experience that you are. There are always these people in every group, but these people are still expected to pay money while being kept to the outside.

Again, I'm trying to be respectful of your church and your beliefs, but this is, from my general experience, what happens when people congregate. Those who don't find this to be true, are usually a part of the inside loop.

- - - Updated - - -

Pardon me but what is UUism?

http://www.paganforum.com/showthread.php?2799-Uu-q-amp-a

[Ouranos Ouroboros]

Re: My experiences with UUism

Quotes shortened for space...

I've attended many churches, no UU's to add to your query, unfortunately for you, although, perhaps, fortunately for me. But I will offer my insight as to what I think of the matter, and what you've experienced is precisely the reason I disagree with institutionalizing any beliefs into a structure.


Inevitably, no matter the original intent, the end result is always the same. These religious groups cannot function without money. Therefore, they do what they can to generate revenue. They eventually forget or never held spirituality at the core of their ideals. They find that people who want to believe that good is at the heart of people everywhere make for really easy targets to garner "donations" and "collections", so they can continue their "charities" and the like. In reality, the majority of this revenue is pocketed to make the upper echelon lucrative sums of money. The charities are the front they use to convince people that they need the money, especially if these charities don't appear to have enough money to function at an ideal level. Because cons are illegal, but religion is fully protected and tax free, it makes it really easy to use religion to con the local populace. And they need people to believe in them devoutly because that's how they protect themselves, with their devout followers.

At present, I have parted ways with the organization. Officially speaking, they won't remove me from their membership book, but I no longer consider myself a member. And I never considered myself a UU - just a pagan who worked with one of their churches for a while.


Your response really resonates with me because I'm pretty sure - after this last experience - that I will no longer expect any organized religion to be able to meet my needs or even minimum standards. I don't think the problem is that people are inherently bad (indeed, I agree with the first UU principle that at least something about everyone is inherently good), but I think infrastructure (including money, of course) is detrimental to people beyond the goal of meeting their basic needs (which includes a few - but never excessive - luxuries). I still believe, however, that I can expand my spirituality with other individuals or in small groups where there is little or no infrastructure (nothing more than, say, providing directions to someone's house or making snacks).

[...] about 25% Pagan, 25% Abrahamic, 25% non-specific deity believing, 25% atheist or agnostic.


I'm pretty sure that failing to do background checks is against the UUA's policy...I'd be looking into that if I were a member. But...I'm not sure how paying the minister is a misappropriation of funds--[...]

It sounds like you're very lucky in regard to your local congregation - that sounds like a nice mix where there is no controlling majority.


I can't recall if doing background checks is official UUA policy or not, but appealing to the UUA will do no good. I sent them a complaint, along with four other members, about child welfare, misappropriation, the behavioral covenant, the breaking of democratic procedure during congregational meetings, the lack of clear policies, the lack of ministerial transparency, and a number of other issues. Every one of us received the same form letter about how individual congregations govern themselves and we're on our own.


Whether or not it's considered ethical, it's certainly legal to pay a minister's salary within such a congregation. The problem I noticed was that we told people we were collecting money for our Social Action budget, then transferred that money to the main budget (the slight majority of which is for the minister's salary and benefits) without even telling those who'd contributed. One of the board members claimed this was fair because the congregation voted in the budget that reflected the re-allocation of funds, but I disagree. I'm willing to listen to anyone who disagrees, but I view that particular money as having been misappropriated according to the legal definitions I've found of the concept.

Monetary (and issues arrising from it) are why I left the protestant church I grew up in. Church policy became about the money rather than the spiritual well being of the members. The church did some good things for the community, but when I got into it and was deep in the nitty gritty it was a massive crisis of faith for me.... [...]


[...] The opinions being expressed by the professor are opinions and they should not be taught, but I wonder what he thinks going to church of any kind is, if not a ritual....


It seems like the idea behind a group like this may be appealing but you have just not found the one that fits you... is there another option nearby?[...]

You certainly have a point, and I've seen what you're talking about in the Southern Baptist church my parents used to force me to attend, as well as in other organizations. With my local UU church, though, it's more about demonstrating social and cultural capital (through token groups and charity recipients) than physical capital, except, of course, regarding the minister's salary.


Unfortunately, almost everything the pagans' group does is linked to the church. We still have a number of friends from the group, though, and we meet with them for socializing and spirit work fairly often. There used to be another place where anyone could hold groups, but they collapsed due to lack of funds. Besides this, there are four other local groups (of which I'm aware) - unfortunately, one has been taken over by an egomaniac who makes every discussion about himself and his personal spiritual path (and who feels that satanism is a form of paganism to boot), the next doesn't want to work with anyone who asks too many questions or demonstrates too much willpower, the third insists that you pay them in scads (for books - they don't pay their teachers), and the last is run by people who believe that you can count the hours you've spent stoned (and, if you like, only those hours) as ministerial training (they actually held an equinox ritual on midsummer last year, which was very amusing but not at all fulfilling). Needless to say, the pickings are slim.


I actually took the stance that the professor who spoke to us should have been allowed to speak his opinions, so long as someone who supported the idea of positive ritual was there to provide balance. I thought that was the fair way to address the issue, but I've mostly been ignored (one board member told me she'd share the concern with someone on the membership committee and that they'd consider acting on it, etc. - I saw it as a non-reply).

I'm going to respectfully present my opinion here, but I completely disagree. Being a minister is not a job. It is a lot of work. But it is not a solicited service. It cannot be taxed. There is no hourly rate. It is a volunteer, non-profit position.[...]

This is where we will have to agree to disagree because I am entirely in favor of paid clergy. I even wish that is was logistically possible to have pagan paid clergy (It isn't really right now, without a really large group of people.)[...]

Fascinating opinions from both of you. I tend to fall somewhere in the middle that's perhaps slightly closer to the side of non-paid clergy. I don't think it's necessarily bad for clergy to be paid enough to meet basic needs and have a few luxuries.


From my point of view… I am a neo-pagan minister (and writer and tutor, but those aren't as relevant to the current discussion) who, obviously, works mainly with individuals and small groups with only an occasional discussion, workshop, ritual, etc. for larger groups. My wife and I are vegan, and we are 98+% free of major corporations (we're Walmart free, Johnson and Johnson free, Proctor and Gamble free, etc.). So we're paying a little more for groceries and other household items than the average American family. Our household represents three humans and three felines, and we live on just under $30k per year (the combined total of my wife's salary - the lion's share, by far - a pittance from donations for my work, and our yearly tax refund). Now that the government will help me see a doctor, we have everything we need and more. To many kings and queens of ages past, our "meagre" existence would seem grand. We have all the necessities, as well as used books, free old games, cds, and a few other luxuries. We don't need cable or soda or fancy vacations or anything like that. We are even able to give a few hundred dollars to charity each year and enjoy picking our charities every year (usually at the autumn equinox or midwinter, depending on funds). We consider ourselves extremely lucky. If it weren't for my wife's job, though, I would have to get more money for my services just to make ends meet. I think that would be fair, so long as I didn't use the money for excessive luxuries. But I also think that ministers (and all teachers, for that matter) should be willing to live with less than others might have because of the nature of their work - just so long as they can survive.

Pardon me but what is UUism?

You want feathered_regalia's link (thanks!) or www.uua.org. Thanks for understanding. Sorry for the confusion; that's my probably my fault because I wasn't sure about where to post.

Great replies. I'd love to see more.

[feathered_regalia]

Re: My experiences with UUism

I'd like to apologize if I seemed overtly hostile or negative in my responses yesterday. I do feel strongly about organized religion, obviously. I've experienced more bad than good and not just with one organization, so I admit I may be a bit jaded in my opinion, but I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt. I don't think people are inherently bad, I hope I didn't give off that impression. I am iron deficient and I could not find my vitamins and I'm out of Total, so I was kind of running on the bottom of the energy barrel, too. Not making up excuses, just hoping everyone understands. I did find them today, so, yay for that .

I think everyone is trying the best that they can, but I also think it's human nature to want to be appreciated and loved, and sometimes envied. Scraping off the top is usually the easiest way to do that. I think Ouranos, you make a lot of interesting points and I enjoyed reading your perspective as a minister. Your humility is actually both refreshing and a bit touching. I don't believe there's anything wrong with having money, of course, I just think it should be from an honest day's work. And I personally think work and spirituality should be kept separate. I have a problem with thinking of a minister as a leech or parasite, wherein they feed off the work of others. And that's ultimately what bothers me about churches. Government, too, but that's a subject I'm not even going to touch right now :P .

[nbdy]

Re: My experiences with UUism

If it had not been for a UU church I would not be where I am today. Sadly, it seems that they had the capacity to reawaken my spiritual side but no means to nurture it. It only took a couple of years for me to discover that much of the leadership was as petty, political, and money-driven as junior faculty at a university, not only at the church level but at the organizational level.

[Ouranos Ouroboros]

Re: My experiences with UUism

I'd like to apologize if I seemed overtly hostile or negative in my responses yesterday. I do feel strongly about organized religion, obviously. I've experienced more bad than good and not just with one organization, so I admit I may be a bit jaded in my opinion, but I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt. I don't think people are inherently bad, I hope I didn't give off that impression. I am iron deficient and I could not find my vitamins and I'm out of Total, so I was kind of running on the bottom of the energy barrel, too. Not making up excuses, just hoping everyone understands. I did find them today, so, yay for that .

I think everyone is trying the best that they can, but I also think it's human nature to want to be appreciated and loved, and sometimes envied. Scraping off the top is usually the easiest way to do that. I think Ouranos, you make a lot of interesting points and I enjoyed reading your perspective as a minister. Your humility is actually both refreshing and a bit touching. I don't believe there's anything wrong with having money, of course, I just think it should be from an honest day's work. And I personally think work and spirituality should be kept separate. I have a problem with thinking of a minister as a leech or parasite, wherein they feed off the work of others. And that's ultimately what bothers me about churches. Government, too, but that's a subject I'm not even going to touch right now :P .

I thought you were fine; I didn't have a problem with anything said and appreciated your honesty. I'm thinking it's possible you have the same problem I sometimes do - I'm a very intense person, and sometimes people equate intense with angry (especially when they aren't getting your tone of voice or body language with your words).

If it had not been for a UU church I would not be where I am today. Sadly, it seems that they had the capacity to reawaken my spiritual side but no means to nurture it. It only took a couple of years for me to discover that much of the leadership was as petty, political, and money-driven as junior faculty at a university, not only at the church level but at the organizational level.

That was my experience. The people I initially met at the pagans' group nourished my spirit (and continue to nourish it), but I just had to get away from the infrastructure.