Amazon defends 'Pedophile's Guide'

[Medusa]

Re: Amazon defends 'Pedophile's Guide'

[quote author=ChainLightning link=topic=766.msg11883#msg11883 date=1289471984]
Writing the book is not a crime. Selling the book is not a crime. Reading the book is not a crime.

The fact that the book explains some basic guidelines for pedophiles? Irrelevant. Absolutely, disgustingly hideous. But irrelevant, nonetheless.
[/quote]
I want to agree with you on an academic paper and pen way. But the real world..it calls to me. No. And as every American wants to cry freedom of speech to let this slide on by. I am going to call on that great American past time: Mob mentality. And hopefully my might is right..even if not on a legal shmegal freedom of speech way. I am really dying to see what ends up happening..


EDIT:
It was pulled

[DanieMarie]

Re: Amazon defends 'Pedophile's Guide'

[quote author=ThorsSon link=topic=766.msg11867#msg11867 date=1289468791]


Should a book about how to be a safe homosexual be censored, because people think homosexuality is wrong?

[/quote]

While you did state that you weren't trying to directly compare the two, this is flawed because, while people might have a problem with homosexuality and think it's wrong, it's legal and involves two consenting adults. So as much as some people might have issues with it, it's definitely not grounds for censorship in a free society. It's legal in the eyes of the law so personal objections are not legally relevant. Pedophilia is illegal and children aren't able to legally consent to sexual acts.

[ThorsSon]

Re: Amazon defends 'Pedophile's Guide'

[quote author=DanieMarie link=topic=766.msg11884#msg11884 date=1289472636]
Ugh this is not only morally objectionable, but it's also really bad marketing.

Do they -want- to lower their sales by tarnishing their image? Because it sure seems like they do. And while, because they sell over the internet, their customer base is basically the mass market at whole, actions like this lose more sales than they gain through the defense of "free speech."
[/quote]

It may very well be a bad business decision... but it is their business decision to make.

I, personally, will not stop doing business with Amazon for refusing to censor this book.

I find the sale of Jenny McCarthy's book Mother Warriors (or any other work that promotes the decision to risk killing not only one's own children, but those around them, by denying them their vaccinations), morally reprehensible. In fact, I find its mere existence reprehensible... yet I do not fault Amazon for carrying the book(s).

[DanieMarie]

Re: Amazon defends 'Pedophile's Guide'

[quote author=Medusa link=topic=766.msg11885#msg11885 date=1289472921]

EDIT:
It was pulled
[/quote]

Not surprised. Sometimes, you just have to let some customers go in the name of greater sales. I'm 1000000% positive that people that would buy a pedophilia manual are less of a customer base than people that would be so outraged over this that they would boycott Amazon.

[ThorsSon]

Re: Amazon defends 'Pedophile's Guide'

[quote author=DanieMarie link=topic=766.msg11886#msg11886 date=1289473143]
While you did state that you weren't trying to directly compare the two, this is flawed because, while people might have a problem with homosexuality and think it's wrong, it's legal and involves two consenting adults. So as much as some people might have issues with it, it's definitely not grounds for censorship in a free society. It's legal in the eyes of the law so personal objections are not legally relevant. Pedophilia is illegal and children aren't able to legally consent to sexual acts.
[/quote]

The legality of the action described does not play into the legality of talking about it, writing a book about it, or even telling how to do it.

In fact, it wasn't really all that long ago that homosexuality was illegal in a great many places.

As AzazelEblis mentioned, a very well known book by Abby Hoffman discussed how to break/circumvent the law. There are MANY books that exist that fall in this category. Some of them are about things that are no longer illegal, and others are about things that are still illegal.

Restricting the ability to discuss things just because they are illegal restricts the ability to affect social change.

I am not arguing that there should be social change brought about regarding the legality of pedophilia, but I am arguing that the legality of a subject should not be a restriction on the ability to discuss it.

[DanieMarie]

Re: Amazon defends 'Pedophile's Guide'

[quote author=ThorsSon link=topic=766.msg11888#msg11888 date=1289473560]
It may very well be a bad business decision... but it is their business decision to make.

I, personally, will not stop doing business with Amazon for refusing to censor this book.

I find the sale of Jenny McCarthy's book Mother Warriors (or any other work that promotes the decision to risk killing not only one's own children, but those around them, by denying them their vaccinations), morally reprehensible. In fact, I find its mere existence reprehensible... yet I do not fault Amazon for carrying the book(s).
[/quote]

of course it's their choice, but businesses still have to be accountable to their customer base and they're responsible for their image, and they have to make decisions based on these things in order to maintain profits and market share. My comments weren't about shutting Amazon up...they were coming from me, as a future Marketer, saying that Amazon had made a poor business choice that could affect their sales. And of course, they reacted exactly the way I thought they would, because the small customer base of pedophiles just isn't worth the loss of sales from a publicity nightmare like this.

Also, I do often boycott businesses based on their social and environmental choices. In todays world, where your dollar is spent tells a LOT to companies and it really pushes them toward making better choices, socially and environmentally. Since our dollars make a heap of difference compared to a gajillion angry letters and even crazy press, yes, I think it's an issue. And I'm not the only one that thinks so....it's a MAJOR issue in business these days and if companies ignore moral issues it's to their own detriment. It's basically pretty stupid.

[DanieMarie]

Re: Amazon defends 'Pedophile's Guide'

[quote author=ThorsSon link=topic=766.msg11890#msg11890 date=1289473847]
The legality of the action described does not play into the legality of talking about it, writing a book about it, or even telling how to do it.

In fact, it wasn't really all that long ago that homosexuality was illegal in a great many places.

As AzazelEblis mentioned, a very well known book by Abby Hoffman discussed how to break/circumvent the law. There are MANY books that exist that fall in this category. Some of them are about things that are no longer illegal, and others are about things that are still illegal.

Restricting the ability to discuss things just because they are illegal restricts the ability to affect social change.

I am not arguing that there should be social change brought about regarding the legality of pedophilia, but I am arguing that the legality of a subject should not be a restriction on the ability to discuss it.
[/quote]

I disagree.

Here in Germany you can't openly publish hate literature, for example. We still enjoy free speech otherwise, and I don't miss the fact that some yahoo can't publicly hate on Jews.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Amazon defends 'Pedophile's Guide'

In theory, I agree with Thorson and Chain regarding freedom of speech. There are books which describe how to commit cries, generally published by small speciality publishing companies, and I don't object.

However, this is a crime directed at children, and I, personally, regard it as a different issue from things like manufacturing illegal drugs in basement labs and picking locks.

A person will run into times when, theory be damned, it's time to put the foot down. For me, this is it.

Each one of us has a personal responsibility to the world because each one of us, by our actions or lack of action, help to make the world we live in what it is. A world where pedophilia books are marketed by corporations out to make a buck by lending tacit support to a book which could well be responsible for the ruined lives of children is not a world where I choose to live. I wouldn't support Amazon if it was publishing pedo picture books, I won't support it when it publishes pedo how to books.

I'll voice my protest in the way that DanieMarie predicted - there are many other book sellers on the internet, just as good as Amazon... I'll be buying from one of them in the future..

[Medusa]

Re: Amazon defends 'Pedophile's Guide'

I guess I just don't see how some person in the higher up thought it would be a-ok to sell this book? I mean in this sue happy country...what was that person thinking? Sure. Rape guides. Right in time for the holidays! I bet that person...is looking for a job right about now. I would have loved to be in that meeting. Just to hear the rationalizations being thrown about. We know the whole freedom of speech scenario. On repeat. But that sorta mans shit in the real world of making money. It's all about customer satisfaction and perception..as DanieMarie mentioned.

[DanieMarie]

Re: Amazon defends 'Pedophile's Guide'

And really that's the grounds behind Germany's law. It's one thing to publish about illegal acts. It's another to publish books about illegal acts that affect the freedoms of other people. That's where they limit free speech: when that "speech" will promote actions that affect others directly in a violent or abusive way.

[DanieMarie]

Re: Amazon defends 'Pedophile's Guide'

[quote author=Medusa link=topic=766.msg11894#msg11894 date=1289474204]
I guess I just don't see how some person in the higher up thought it would be a-ok to sell this book? I mean in this sue happy country...what was that person thinking? Sure. Rape guides. Right in time for the holidays! I bet that person...is looking for a job right about now. I would have loved to be in that meeting. Just to hear the rationalizations being thrown about. We know the whole freedom of speech scenario. On repeat. But that sorta mans shit in the real world of making money. It's all about customer satisfaction and perception..as DanieMarie mentioned.
[/quote]

I know, right? Granted I'm only a student still, but I'm really passionate about marketing. I just don't understand what was going through their heads. It's like "a handful of pedophiles, or a potential hit to our reputation and the loss of a larger customer base?" They might have the market advantage, but it's not like they don't have any competitors!

And that's just talking about customers. While I don't think that this would cause a huge shareholder reaction, if a boycott resulted in a loss of sales they'd likely lose a few shareholders.

[Tylluan Penry]

Re: Amazon defends 'Pedophile's Guide'

I'll come at this from a slightly different angle. Amazon is already VERY choosy about what it will and will not advertise. For about a year after my first book, Seeking the Green, came out, Amazon persisted in listing it as 'unavailable - out of print.' I told them it wasn't, my publishers told them they were wrong - but would they listen? No.

To this day I don't know why, but contacts within publishing have confirmed this is common practice and that Amazon will not be told otherwise. Why some books are treated like this and not others is beyond me.

The point is - Amazon could (if it had wished) done the same to the book mentioned in the OP. It did not.


I wonder why.....

[ThorsSon]

Re: Amazon defends 'Pedophile's Guide'

[quote author=Tylluan Penry link=topic=766.msg11914#msg11914 date=1289476135]
I'll come at this from a slightly different angle. Amazon is already VERY choosy about what it will and will not advertise. For about a year after my first book, Seeking the Green, came out, Amazon persisted in listing it as 'unavailable - out of print.' I told them it wasn't, my publishers told them they were wrong - but would they listen? No.

To this day I don't know why, but contacts within publishing have confirmed this is common practice and that Amazon will not be told otherwise. Why some books are treated like this and not others is beyond me.

The point is - Amazon could (if it had wished) done the same to the book mentioned in the OP. It did not.


I wonder why.....
[/quote]

That is a very interesting detail, and certainly adds another element to the discussion... and makes me question my original stance. I still stand for freedom of speech, and I stand for people's/business's rights to make their own decisions... but to stand for freedom of speech while censoring/quasi-censoring others, certainly forces a questions about Amazon's standards.

However, one point to consider: since the book in question is published as a digital ebook, it can't be "out-of-print."

But your details certainly do shed a new light on the discussion.

[thalassa]

Re: Amazon defends 'Pedophile's Guide'

If owning, viewing, making, etc child porn is illegal...then why the hell would a book seller carry a guide that is essentially a guide to to what is going on in child porn?

Smacks of really poor taste and business decision making...I can't see that the book would make them enough money to be worth the potential customer loss over people in arms about it.

Also...just because someone has the right to *say* something, doesn't mean someone else has to publish it, distribute it, etc. Personally, the idea that someone at Amazon thought that was a good idea to put something like that out for public consumption is nearly as off putting than the idea that someone was sick enough to write it in the first place.

[spartacandream]

Re: Amazon defends 'Pedophile's Guide'

Isn't it illegal to write books like this? Assisting in helping others break the law? Regardless of whether or not you defend their right to free speech, to write such a distasteful book, I think this would fall under helping others break the law. Wouldn't it?