Amazon defends 'Pedophile's Guide'

[DanieMarie]

Re: Amazon defends 'Pedophile's Guide'

[quote author=spartacandream link=topic=766.msg11939#msg11939 date=1289481108]
Isn't it illegal to write books like this? Assisting in helping others break the law? Regardless of whether or not you defend their right to free speech, to write such a distasteful book, I think this would fall under helping others break the law. Wouldn't it?
[/quote]

It really depends on where you are. I think it differs between countries, and the US seems to be really big on individual state laws. And sometimes there are really irritating loopholes (no matter where you're talking about).
I think it might be illegal here, but I'm not 100% sure on that either.

[thalassa]

Re: Amazon defends 'Pedophile's Guide'

[quote author=spartacandream link=topic=766.msg11939#msg11939 date=1289481108]
Isn't it illegal to write books like this?
[/quote]

probably not in the US...

case in point

[ChainLightning]

Re: Amazon defends 'Pedophile's Guide'

Which was my whole entire point, to begin with. The book isn't illegal. Not by writing it, selling it or reading it. Therefor censoring it, or not, is not a legal question. Meaning, the content of this horrendous piece of crap is well within, or has no bearing, really, on the rights of a bookstore (like Amazon) to sell, as they see fit.

The fact that they pulled it DOES mean that their customers affect their business practices. That should not be confused with 'they decided to censor what 'you' (any reader or potential reader) can read.' I'm glad they pulled it. I'd hate to see whose hands the book may fall in to. But I'd still support their right to sell it, if they hadn't pulled it.

[DanieMarie]

Re: Amazon defends 'Pedophile's Guide'

Censorship happens all the time. Especially in the media. I mean, you can't just show whatever you want on Prime Time TV....so why does Amazon think they can just sell whatever regardless of social responsibility? I have two issues with this whole incident...on a minor level (because I don't think this is the bigger issue as a whole...regulations always leave gaps for companies to abuse things) I don't think it should be legal (and before you spout about freedom of speech at me, NOWHERE in the entire world are you allowed to do whatever you want, and laws are supposed to protect the greater good and wider freedoms of a country, not just individuals), and sales shouldn't be allowed either (and once again, businesses are ALWAYS subject to regulations EVERYWHERE. Even they know that they're not just allowed to do whatever they want whenever they want. That's why they employ extensive legal teams to make sure that they're dealing with regulations appropriately). My major issue though is that this is a giant moron decision to make, business-wise. That's right...I called whoever was in charge of this a moron. It's so textbook that it is actually IN my textbook. "...Written regulations cannot possibly cover all potential marketing abuses, and existing laws are often difficult to enforce. However, beyond written laws and regulations, business is also governed by social codes and rules of professional ethics....Enlightened companies encourage their managers to look beyond what the regulatory system allows and simply to 'do the right thing'..." Philip Kotler, "Principles of Marketing", Fifth European Edition, 2008.
Basically it's such common knowledge these days that they actually TELL you in Marketing textbooks that you have to be socially responsible and failure to do so could easily result in loss of sales. Aside from the above quote (from Chapter 4), there is an ENTIRE chapter in Kotler (Chapter 2) devoted to this. So aside from legal and moral issues, I just think it's stupid.

Sorry if I've been ranting or repetitive in this thread...I've been studying allllll day and this stuff happened to come up, both in Marketing and Strategic Management.

[ChainLightning]

Re: Amazon defends 'Pedophile's Guide'

Well, yeah. Socially responsible businesses tend to do much better than businesses that aren't as considerate of their social climate. That's normal and a key element of capitalism.

It isn't, however, covered by the letter of the law, as you also indicated, Danie. In fact, that choice is protected by the letter of the law. It's the business' decision, what they'll sell, what they put on the shelf, for their customers to buy. They get to make a decision based on marketing and sales. Not on censorship.

No higher authority, than the consumers themselves, can tell a bookstore what they can or cannot let me buy. Within reason, of course. And that's the whole crux.

Mrs. Penry's book wouldn't be sold. Other books, that have been banned in many places, ARE sold on there. Many with content that is nothing more than how-to's for committing crimes. Questionable business practices? You bet!

But they are not told by some government edict how to run their business (thought control - "limiting public access to objectionable material" - can be, and IS, a slippery slope of even worse conditions than freedom of speech). Sales is the bottom line, not some legal description of what is "acceptable material".

[Ophidia]

Re: Amazon defends 'Pedophile's Guide'

I have read a lot of literature involving the rape, molestation and harm of children. A lot. It pops up in some unexpected places. Many of those books are sold on amazon.com.

I think the biggest difference between say, Flowers in the Attic and this Guide to Pedophilia (or whatever the title is) is that one is fiction and the other gilds no lilies in stating that it is a guidebook for people to have sexual relationships with children. Pedophilia is apparently the one legal line that people feel should not be crossed. I've read books that encourage and glamorize many taboo subjects - necrophilia, beastiality, rape, murder, cannibalism, you name it - many of which I've bought from amazon, book clubs, used & new book stores and picked up from the library.

Personally, I think this may be one case 'any publicity is not necessarily good publicity'. I know that I don't give a rat's behind if amazon sells books like this and I'll continue doing business with them. I also know that there are people who are already boycotting the site and its affiliates, and that amazon is going to lose some integrity. It may also mean that harsher restrictions will no doubt be applied to their wares in the future, which means I'll have to shop elsewhere for all my non-con-necro-beasty-cannibalism porn. ;D

[DanieMarie]

Re: Amazon defends 'Pedophile's Guide'

[quote author=ChainLightning link=topic=766.msg11979#msg11979 date=1289490066]
Well, yeah. Socially responsible businesses tend to do much better than businesses that aren't as considerate of their social climate. That's normal and a key element of capitalism.

It isn't, however, covered by the letter of the law, as you also indicated, Danie. In fact, that choice is protected by the letter of the law. It's the business' decision, what they'll sell, what they put on the shelf, for their customers to buy. They get to make a decision based on marketing and sales. Not on censorship.


[/quote]

False. There are all sorts of laws dictating what can and can't be sold, and businesses are subject to all kinds of laws that cover what they can sell, who they can sell to and how they market their products. If you think otherwise, you're very, very wrong.

Every country has laws such as this and while the business is generally free to make its own choices and consumers are free to decide, there are also a lot of laws that dictate the boundaries of this. You can't legally sell heroin, for example. And you can't sell alcohol to anyone under 18 (or 21 in the US). You need a prescription from a doctor to buy cortisone. And San Francisco just banned the inclusion toys in kids meals as a marketing practice, just to name a few examples.

[cesara]

Re: Amazon defends 'Pedophile's Guide'

[quote author=ThorsSon link=topic=766.msg11873#msg11873 date=1289469622]
I am sure there ARE books on how to make meth. Until recently, marijuana was illegal in all 50 states, yet the magazine High Times circulated with impunity. The Anarchist's Cookbook is a very controversial, yet First Amendment protected book. The Bible condones rape and incest (in the story of Lot and his daughters (they raped him)). Murder mysteries are thought exercises on how to get away with murder... etc.
[/quote]

Mostly this. The act is illegal -- not writing about it.

I like your point about thte story of Lot, ThorsSon -- the most popular book [and for some, a literally 'true' book] of all time and therein lies a story of rape [and other illegal things, I might add]. Should they pull the bible, too??

It's a slippery slope, and I'm just not prepared to slide down it.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Amazon defends 'Pedophile's Guide'

[quote author=cesara link=topic=766.msg12000#msg12000 date=1289492566]

Mostly this. The act is illegal -- not writing about it.

I like your point about thte story of Lot, ThorsSon -- the most popular book [and for some, a literally 'true' book] of all time and therein lies a story of rape [and other illegal things, I might add]. Should they pull the bible, too??

It's a slippery slope, and I'm just not prepared to slide down it.

[/quote]

Does the Bible give instructions on how to rape, or is it part of a symbolic or otherwise meaningful narrative?

I honestly don't see the slope as being all that slippery.

[ChainLightning]

Re: Amazon defends 'Pedophile's Guide'

[quote author=DanieMarie link=topic=766.msg11997#msg11997 date=1289492148]
False. There are all sorts of laws dictating what can and can't be sold, and businesses are subject to all kinds of laws that cover what they can sell, who they can sell to and how they market their products. If you think otherwise, you're very, very wrong.

Every country has laws such as this and while the business is generally free to make its own choices and consumers are free to decide, there are also a lot of laws that dictate the boundaries of this. You can't legally sell heroin, for example. And you can't sell alcohol to anyone under 18 (or 21 in the US). You need a prescription from a doctor to buy cortisone. And San Francisco just banned the inclusion toys in kids meals as a marketing practice, just to name a few examples.
[/quote]

You're still putting the cart before the horse.

I'm done, trying to explain.

[cesara]

Re: Amazon defends 'Pedophile's Guide'

[quote author=B. de Corbin link=topic=766.msg12037#msg12037 date=1289499847]
Does the Bible give instructions on how to rape, or is it part of a symbolic or otherwise meaningful narrative?

I honestly don't see the slope as being all that slippery.
[/quote]

The bible instructs on many things that are illegal today, including slavery, as one example. Meaningful narrative? That would be pretty subjective -- meaningful in what way? To who?

Whatever this book teaches -- it will also enlighten those who's job it is to thwart the action, which actually IS illegal. It's information -- what we DO with it is when it becomes an issue.

Amazon also carries Mein Kampf.....

[DanieMarie]

Re: Amazon defends 'Pedophile's Guide'

[quote author=ChainLightning link=topic=766.msg12047#msg12047 date=1289502401]
You're still putting the cart before the horse.

I'm done, trying to explain.
[/quote]

I'm sorry, but no I'm not. This is my field and these are very real, serious issues within marketing and strategic business. I don't know why you think that there are not laws dictating that some products can't be sold, or that some products can't be sold to certain people (or only to certain people) or that certain products can only be sold by certain people, or that marketing doesn't have to follow legal guidelines, but this how things are. These laws differ between countries, but there are such laws in every single country in the entire world.

If you would like, after the weekend I will gladly site many, many sources proving my point.

[DanieMarie]

Re: Amazon defends 'Pedophile's Guide'

[quote author=cesara link=topic=766.msg12070#msg12070 date=1289504416]

The bible instructs on many things that are illegal today, including slavery, as one example. Meaningful narrative? That would be pretty subjective -- meaningful in what way? To who?

Whatever this book teaches -- it will also enlighten those who's job it is to thwart the action, which actually IS illegal. It's information -- what we DO with it is when it becomes an issue.

Amazon also carries Mein Kampf.....
[/quote]

Amazon does not carry Mein Kampf in Germany, because Germany restricts its sale. You can get an edited version carrying heavy commentary, or you can get books on the history and meaning of the book, but you can not get the complete and unedited book itself.

[Raphaeline]

Re: Amazon defends 'Pedophile's Guide'

I've got so much going on in my head getting only halfway through the thread I just have to stop and say something before I can continue.

I am a parent, and so that usually means people expect me to, for instance, suddenly be pro-life. I think people expect parents to be all of one opinion on things, and this is definitely something I (and all parents would think I'd be expected to be outraged about - particularly by other parents who have those beliefs. But, truth be told, if I were Amazon, I'd keep the book available. Not because I agree with the author that pedophilia is somehow acceptable, but because this country is all about free speech and when you pick and choose, it shows that the concept itself really isn't as important to you as you thought.

And pedophiles are classified as evil as rapists, probably more so, even more evil than murderers. People may not actually sit down and put them in that order, but we as a society have more rage and hatred for pedos than killers. We watch TV shows and movies that inspire creativity - even include instruction at times - on how to get away with murder. We see clues as to how law enforcement prevents crimes and solves them. No one is outraged that someone might get inspired or follow instructions from these things - sure, the point of the plot is that the bad guy gets caught (most of the time), but otherwise they get away or are shown getting supernatural comeuppance like karma or God's punishment. Even then, all it does is show the flaws in the criminals logic and how to avoid that should the viewer attempt the crime.

But when it comes to pedophilia, there is much greater emotion in response to it within society. I'm not surprised in the least that it caused such a stir.

I have no idea what's in this book, but it sounds to me like the author, while whatever he has written is doubtless disgusting and immoral, didn't commit a crime by writing a book.

[Raphaeline]

Re: Amazon defends 'Pedophile's Guide'

[quote author=B. de Corbin link=topic=766.msg11893#msg11893 date=1289474051]
In theory, I agree with Thorson and Chain regarding freedom of speech. There are books which describe how to commit cries, generally published by small speciality publishing companies, and I don't object.

However, this is a crime directed at children, and I, personally, regard it as a different issue from things like manufacturing illegal drugs in basement labs and picking locks.

A person will run into times when, theory be damned, it's time to put the foot down. For me, this is it.

Each one of us has a personal responsibility to the world because each one of us, by our actions or lack of action, help to make the world we live in what it is. A world where pedophilia books are marketed by corporations out to make a buck by lending tacit support to a book which could well be responsible for the ruined lives of children is not a world where I choose to live. I wouldn't support Amazon if it was publishing pedo picture books, I won't support it when it publishes pedo how to books.

I'll voice my protest in the way that DanieMarie predicted - there are many other book sellers on the internet, just as good as Amazon... I'll be buying from one of them in the future..
[/quote]

After reading this, I think my mind is changed.

You're right - it's our job as a society to protect ourselves from those who'd do us and our children harm.

But what about the other ones? What about books, TV, movies that - fiction or not - instruct or inspire to commit acts such as murder? How are they different?


ETA: OK, done reading.

I watched an SVU episode once wherein an owner of company that produced pornography was arrested when a dangerous person read a story about someone having sex with an underage girl (I say "underage" instead of "child" but I honestly don't remember how old she was) and committed the act himself as detailed in the story. The rapist claimed he tried repeatedly to get rid of the messages from his email, but they kept sending them to him, and therefore pushed him over the edge.
It angered me that a common advertisement practice - spamming - was interpreted as persuading the guy to commit a crime. I seem to recall that there were pictures with the story in which a woman was made to look younger to the point that she looked like a child, but that may be mixing up the episodes. Anyhow, in my mind, writing about something - however illegal - shouldn't be a crime. A government deems something illegal and we can no longer communicate about it through literature? It seemed to me an excellent way to control the people.

I should have immediately said that the freedom of speech rights of the author of the book shouldn't extend to encouraging societally dangerous behavior. I think the only reason I didn't was my reluctance to be seen as reacting without consideration since I have a small child. Ironically, that's exactly what I did