Amazon defends 'Pedophile's Guide'

[Clive]

Re: Amazon defends 'Pedophile's Guide'

First of all, I hate pedophiles. I hate them with every fiber of my being.

That said, it's a complicated issue. On one hand I think, "Maybe this book should be banned because it can very obviously cause a lot of children to get hurt and a lot of otherwise strong-willed (that is, not sexually active) pedophiles to ruin their lives." But then I remember, "The Anarchist's Cookbook could conceivably cause people to get hurt, but I wouldn't be for banning that book." And I don't want to be a hypocrite.

So, imho, this is a Freddy Kreuger situation. The law says this book is okay, so let all the Outraged Mothers (and Fathers) out there take the guy who wrote the book and burn him in a kiln. I wouldn't weep if they did.

[Medusa]

Re: Amazon defends 'Pedophile's Guide'

I don't defend this scum bag in any way, but it seems possible to me that his goal was to discourage violent crimes, and encourage acting out in other ways.

Oh come on now. Where is the eye roller.... :

"I hope to achieve this by appealing to the better nature of pedosexuals, with hope that their doing so will result in less hatred and perhaps liter sentences should they ever be caught."

This. This is why he wrote the book. To not get caught. Let's not kid ourselves with this nut job's reasoning.

[DanieMarie]

Re: Amazon defends 'Pedophile's Guide'

[quote author=thalassa link=topic=766.msg12202#msg12202 date=1289515875]

And, if you don't like that it *is* legal, then maybe you should contact your congressman or whatnot to see that child exploitation laws ARE expanded to include material that would instruct others on how to exploit children so that pervy assholes can be sent to jail.

ETA...this makes me wonder why this isn't included under child porn laws...
[/quote]

I totally agree with this, and would do so but I'm pretty sure that this is already included in child porn laws here. I think I remember there being a case about it a couple of years ago but I can't remember.

[Crimson Horizons]

Re: Amazon defends 'Pedophile's Guide'

Firstly, I think the title of the thread a bit misleading. Nowhere does Amazon defend the contents of the book, but rather they defend their right to sell it.

Secondly, I support Amazon's right to sell anything legal it deems fit. Now, whether or not it was wise of Amazon to sell this product is a different issue.

Thirdly, as I have not read the piece in question, I refuse to take a stance about the moral validity of its contents. Since I have no desire for the US Government to begin tracking my IP address due to concerns about me being a sexual predator were I to purchase this book, I am unlikely to read it. Thusly will continue to refuse to take a stance on said moral validity.

[ChainLightning]

Re: Amazon defends 'Pedophile's Guide'

I wonder how much different the case would have been had the author been a convicted pedophile.

I wonder how much different the case would have been had child porn and child protection laws were way more defined. (Thanks, Thal!)

I wonder if the strength of the consumers' dollar and voice actually speaks loud enough. The book sold hundreds of copies before it was pulled.

I wonder how dangerous the ground really is, when people demand results contrary to the very basic premise of them being ABLE to demand *anything*.

We keep redirecting this. From correlations to historical 'majority opinion' attitudes toward homosexuality, to other books describing illegal activities and how to lessen the repurcussions of committing those crimes, to hate speech, to whatever abomination moves us....

Fact is: Medusa's right. Not a one of us supports the concept, even remotely, of child abuse, child molestation or child rape. Pedophile activities. We don't need comparisons, correlations, analogies or other examples.

Something needed to be done. It was done. And still didn't infringe on anyone's right. The constitution never entered into it. Accounting did.

There ought to be a law. Part of the protections we've legislated for our children. Free speech? Boycott, complain and contact your congressperson - free speech preserved and used. To counter free speech abused and reversed.

Problem solved.

[Medusa]

Re: Amazon defends 'Pedophile's Guide'

I found some more interesting interviews with Mr Greaves II.

Video sauce
" I don't think it's always bad for the child"

And an interesting piece on Anderson Cooper (with a quick quip from the author again)
more pedo sauce
He does make a good point about banning porn yet letting this book go through. Amazon does indeed self censor. But somehow this book was ok?

[Dez]

Re: Amazon defends 'Pedophile's Guide'

Gah....ok, ok, Medusa, you won.

All attempts at a benefit of the doubt retracted. Yuck.

[cesara]

Re: Amazon defends 'Pedophile's Guide'

[quote author=DanieMarie link=topic=766.msg12078#msg12078 date=1289505133]
Amazon does not carry Mein Kampf in Germany, because Germany restricts its sale. You can get an edited version carrying heavy commentary, or you can get books on the history and meaning of the book, but you can not get the complete and unedited book itself.
[/quote]

Interesting. We can buy it here in Canada.

[cesara]

Re: Amazon defends 'Pedophile's Guide'

[quote author=B. de Corbin link=topic=766.msg12096#msg12096 date=1289506995]
Does it actually give instructions on how to take slaves? I haven't read that part, but I'll take your word for it - there's big chunks of it that I've found just too boring to bother with ;D .
[/quote]
Yeah, it talks about where you should get them from and also instructs in their discipline. There. Now you don't have to read it.

[quote author=B. de Corbin link=topic=766.msg12096#msg12096 date=1289506995]
but flat out instructions on how to commit an act of abuse on children doesn't strike me as particularly subjective. Sorry - I understand your point, but I don't see it as being applicable here. Probably 99% of the time I would be in agreement with you... but this is about children...[/quote]
Yes, children are definitely an emotional trigger for us as a society! I guess what keeps going through my mind is -- there are books instructing on how to make bombs. Bombs can harm/kill kids, too. Should bomb-making books be censored? I say no.....is a pedo instructional book the 1% you talk about for me....I hate to say yes....I really, really, do....

[quote author=B. de Corbin link=topic=766.msg12096#msg12096 date=1289506995]
Okey -dokey. Now law enforcement has the book. Can they distribute copies to other law enforcement agencies to get that information? Or do law enforcement agencies get that information by buying the book from Amazon?[/quote]
Not sure why it matters? The point is they also have the information.

[quote author=B. de Corbin link=topic=766.msg12096#msg12096 date=1289506995]
If somebody were to publish an article on the internet describing Cesara's house, how to break into it, where she was likely to be at a specific time, how best to capture her, suggest methods of incapacitating her, and what then to do to her after incapacitating her, I guess I'd just figure that it's in poor taste, but protected by freedom of speech theories. No problem. Cesara's an adult and can deal with that kind of thing.[/quote]
Dayam! Way to have me sleepin' with one eye open tonight! Seriously, I soooo absolutely get your point.....


[quote author=B. de Corbin link=topic=766.msg12096#msg12096 date=1289506995]
Maybe this is just and existentialist thing... no rule is absolute in all circumstances... but it seems more rational to me than following even the best of rules by rote without reflection on the actual events...
[/quote]
Maybe you're right....but, other examples are just as startling and I just can't wrap my head around making pedo different from them specifically because it is targeted at children -- as I said, bombs and murder affect children, too.

[quote author=Deseret link=topic=766.msg12117#msg12117 date=1289508805]
I think it's proof the system works, myself.

He wrote the book, found a publisher who was willing to publish, got it in print. Free speech protects that.

The public didn't like it, and boycotted said publisher until they backed up. Also freedom of speech. It cuts both ways.
[/quote]
Yes...yes, this!! Thank gawd for consumerism!

[Shadow Dragon]

Re: Amazon defends 'Pedophile's Guide'

The main thing I don't like about this is Amazon's hypocritical attitude towards censorship. They don't allow porn but yet a guide for pedophiles is perfectly ok. That's just a rather weird set of priorities they have.

[ThorsSon]

Re: Amazon defends 'Pedophile's Guide'

It certainly does change things that amazon does engage in censorship. I have to admit that I was unaware of this fact.

To be honest, I am ok with the decision to abstain from censorship... But if they DO censor certain things, but chose to allow this book (even if it was for only a short time), it does call for questions of their morals and decision making.

[DanieMarie]

Re: Amazon defends 'Pedophile's Guide'

[quote author=cesara link=topic=766.msg12278#msg12278 date=1289530495]

Interesting. We can buy it here in Canada.
[/quote]

Yeah Germany has stricter censorship laws regarding that sort of thing. But I think there are obvious reasons for it. After the war there was a lot of blame and hate for Germany and they wanted to cleanse themselves of all of that, and it still lasts now because there's still a LOT of guilt (even among people my age, who were born 40 years after the war ended), and frankly most people just don't want to hear it so much that they really do want it banned. So even though it's a censorship of free speech, the reason I think it's ok is that the majority calls for the censorship. Also, the rest of the world still sees Germany a bit negatively, and if someone starting publishing and distributing nazi hate literature over here, or I think even if Mein Kampf were widely available, it just wouldn't look good.

On the flip side of that, Germany has MUCH laxer censorship laws regarding TV. Especially with nudity. Violence is actually quite a big deal (no excessive blood!) But they just don't see nudity has -having- to be sexual and there's an attitude here that the body is a normal thing. So I saw a Spiegel cover once with nude people on it, and if there's a segment on saunas on an info show on ProSieben (our biggest network) at 7 pm, there will be naked people in it (because you strip down in the sauna...why not?)

Though actually I was curious so I just Googled the laws regarding Mein Kampf, and actually it's not covered under the laws that forbid hate lit, as it's a historical text. It's only not currently published because after Hitler's death, the state of Bayern took over copyright and they refuse to publish it. They don't own the rights in certain other languages though (one of them being English), otherwise you probably wouldn't see it sold abroad either. But it enters public domain in 2015 so it will probably be reprinted here then and sold as a historical text. I stand corrected!

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Amazon defends 'Pedophile's Guide'

Thought Experiment:

Pagan Forum is a publisher - when people post, they do so so that others can read what they have to say, and, by maintaining this site, the owner and moderators are acting as distributors. Publishing and distributing, same as Amazon ebooks...

We who come here are pretty open minded, the variety of topics open to discussion is amazing. Censorship is very rare, and only takes place under extreme conditions.

Suppose that somebody wrote a pedo guide, and posted it in the General Discussion area of this forum.

The description of the sections states: "Feel free to talk about anything and everything in this board," which makes a pedo guide entirely appropriate for the section.

How long would it be up before our free speech loving moderators took it down?

And if this were the sort of place where things like that are routinely posted and left up, how many of us - who also love free speech - would continue to come here?

[thalassa]

Re: Amazon defends 'Pedophile's Guide'

[quote author=B. de Corbin link=topic=766.msg12339#msg12339 date=1289561130]

How long would it be up before our free speech loving moderators took it down?[/quote]

All of about five seconds. Realistically though, as long as it took one of us to get to that thread in their unreads--if someone came on here and posted something totally in appropriate in the wee hours of the morning, it might take a bit longer.

As we have had to state in the past, we might have freedom of speech/press/etc (for those of us in the US), but that doesn't mean you have complete freedom of speech here. We are a privately owned forum, and we have standards of what we do and do not allow. By and large, we are fairly open minded about what we do allow...and to some degree those standards, I think take sort of Potter Stuart approach (I know it when I see it)...but we don't hesitate to remove anything that is beyond those standards.

And if this were the sort of place where things like that are routinely posted and left up, how many of us - who also love free speech - would continue to come here?

All of about five seconds.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Amazon defends 'Pedophile's Guide'

Yeah - that's why I can feel good about associating with Pagan Forum, but won't be associating with Amazon in the future.