Ethical question: Buying pets

[Hawkfeathers]

Re: Ethical question: Buying pets

I'm a bird person. I bought my African Grey from a reputable breeder in 1990. As far as cats and dogs go, it depends on what you want. You're not going to be able to adopt a Schutzhund-trained GSD, for example - that's big $$$. I think the ethical part is in knowing who you're buying from, should you decide to buy, rather than whether to buy or not.

[Torey]

Re: Ethical question: Buying pets

I'm a bird person.

This makes me happy - bird-person to bird-person

[Hawkfeathers]

Re: Ethical question: Buying pets

This makes me happy - bird-person to bird-person

Good to know another friend of feathered friends!

[Rae'ya]

Re: Ethical question: Buying pets

Rae'ya - what's wrong with no-kill shelters (other than the fact that they fill up and can't take as many new animals)?

I understand that some animals just need to be put down...it's the nature of caring for another species (violent/rabid whatever)...but I don't think I've ever heard anything bad about no-kill other than the space thing.

No-kill shelters (the true ones who literally NEVER euthanise anything) rehome pets that have severe medical and behavioural issues. I've had far too many clients 'rescue' a pet that they can't afford, not because they can't afford vaccination fees, but because they can't afford the thousands of dollars it's going to cost to manage their chronic skin disease, or the hundreds to get their teeth cleaned up. Many no-kill shelters don't even treat the animals for existing disease before they rehome them... I have personally witnessed them rehoming pets with Grade 4 dental disease (which means infection, abcessing and teeth needing extraction), dogs with heart disease, lots of dogs with chronic skin allergies and similar. The worst I can think of offhand is a Neopolitan Mastiff with sever behavioural issues - this particular dog has since gone on to bite adults and children and is one of the worst and most unpredictably aggressive dogs I've ever met (very few dogs are truly 'unpredictable'... they almost always have warning signals... this one doesn't). These behaviours are the reason the dog was surrendered to the shelter in the first place, yet it was knowingly sent into a family with children. Another was a Rottweiler that had debilitating congenital spinal nerve problems which needed specialist referral, an MRI and costly surgery. Again, the dog had been assessed by a veterinarian that worked with the shelter, who recommended that it be euthanised, but was rehomed anyway. The owners were told that it was perfectly healthy.

For something a little closer to home for you US folks... Torey's aunt adopted several dogs from a no-kill shelter. One promptly died of what I suspect was parvo, two days after adoption. Only one of the dogs lasted longer than a few months, and then she died of what was either heart disease or heartworm (I never got to see the dogs myself so I can't be sure, but the symptoms Torey described to me sounded like heart failure).

Most people in the veterinary industry are against no-kill shelters. I support a 'no-kill-if-it's-not-sick' policy, but I don't support a blanket no-kill policy.

[Shahaku]

Re: Ethical question: Buying pets

At my computer now. So. The dog population, at least here in the US (can't speak for elsewhere) is rampantly out of control. It needs to be fixed. I think that shelters need to lower their adoption fees, and people need to get their dogs from a shelter. A lot of shelters around here want $200 for a dog, sometimes as much as $150 for cats. Rabbits can be ridiculously expensive as well because they usually require spay/neuter for them too, and that's very expensive for rabbits because the anesthesia is difficult. I know they need the money to stay afloat, but the animals would pass through quicker with a lower fee. But. I do think adopting is the better option.

The other issue is breeders. A lot of breeders have an inbreeding problem. A lot of breeds have an inbreeding problem. Period. It isn't healthy. And it's perpetuated by breed standards at shows. Am I completely against showing dogs? No. But I think that we need to drift away from judging based on breed standards. Things like overall health, ability, stamina. Not necessarily their ability to run a course, but general health. And genetics. If the markers for hip dysplasia or whatever are particularly high, I don't think that animal should be considered showable or breedable. And until the problems with breeders are under better control and they are breeding healthy animals and not perpetuating bad genetics, I don't think that people should buy purebred dogs. Paying $50 for a mutt to help cover the owners expenses up until you get the dog is a different matter completely and something I don't have so much of an issue with.

However, I understand the want for a puppy, even (and possibly particularly) a purebred. Raising it the way you want, etc. If everyone was committed to the puppies they buy, it wouldn't be so much of an issue because dogs wouldn't end up in shelters as a rule. Maybe if their owner becomes disabled or passes away, but that's not generally where shelter dogs come from. Also, understanding the breed you are buying, and what you realistically are capable of doing. You don't want to get a breed that is extensively outside your comfort zone. For instance, we got a husky pup. I would never send her to a shelter, but it's almost impossible because she is so high energy and we're.. not.

[Luce]

Re: Ethical question: Buying pets

I always adopt.

[DanieMarie]

Re: Ethical question: Buying pets

No-kill shelters (the true ones who literally NEVER euthanise anything) rehome pets that have severe medical and behavioural issues. I've had far too many clients 'rescue' a pet that they can't afford, not because they can't afford vaccination fees, but because they can't afford the thousands of dollars it's going to cost to manage their chronic skin disease, or the hundreds to get their teeth cleaned up. Many no-kill shelters don't even treat the animals for existing disease before they rehome them... I have personally witnessed them rehoming pets with Grade 4 dental disease (which means infection, abcessing and teeth needing extraction), dogs with heart disease, lots of dogs with chronic skin allergies and similar. The worst I can think of offhand is a Neopolitan Mastiff with sever behavioural issues - this particular dog has since gone on to bite adults and children and is one of the worst and most unpredictably aggressive dogs I've ever met (very few dogs are truly 'unpredictable'... they almost always have warning signals... this one doesn't). These behaviours are the reason the dog was surrendered to the shelter in the first place, yet it was knowingly sent into a family with children. Another was a Rottweiler that had debilitating congenital spinal nerve problems which needed specialist referral, an MRI and costly surgery. Again, the dog had been assessed by a veterinarian that worked with the shelter, who recommended that it be euthanised, but was rehomed anyway. The owners were told that it was perfectly healthy.

For something a little closer to home for you US folks... Torey's aunt adopted several dogs from a no-kill shelter. One promptly died of what I suspect was parvo, two days after adoption. Only one of the dogs lasted longer than a few months, and then she died of what was either heart disease or heartworm (I never got to see the dogs myself so I can't be sure, but the symptoms Torey described to me sounded like heart failure).

Most people in the veterinary industry are against no-kill shelters. I support a 'no-kill-if-it's-not-sick' policy, but I don't support a blanket no-kill policy.

I'm not sure if this is true throughout Germany, but in Berlin our version of the RSPCA pays for things like vet visits, medications, and specialty food when the pets have medical conditions. They also treat the animals while they are in the Tierheim's care and are required to give full disclosure about all medical and behavioural issues. It's a shame that it doesn't work like that elsewhere :/

[Rae'ya]

Re: Ethical question: Buying pets

I'm not sure if this is true throughout Germany, but in Berlin our version of the RSPCA pays for things like vet visits, medications, and specialty food when the pets have medical conditions. They also treat the animals while they are in the Tierheim's care and are required to give full disclosure about all medical and behavioural issues. It's a shame that it doesn't work like that elsewhere :/

It works like that for the RSPCA and the AWL here in Aus (except that they don't pay ongoing costs). It's the independant rescue organisations that are the problem. Some are ethical but many aren't. And laypeople often just don't understand the significance of a blanket no-kill policy in small organisations that don't have vet staff. I've got a number of horror stories.

[DanieMarie]

Re: Ethical question: Buying pets

It works like that for the RSPCA and the AWL here in Aus (except that they don't pay ongoing costs). It's the independant rescue organisations that are the problem. Some are ethical but many aren't. And laypeople often just don't understand the significance of a blanket no-kill policy in small organisations that don't have vet staff. I've got a number of horror stories.

Yikes! I'm not sure of the track record of smaller shelters here. Most people adopt through the Tierheim because of its trustworthiness or adopt directly from previous owners.

[Roknrol]

Re: Ethical question: Buying pets

Wow...we have NEVER seen a no-kill shelter that bad. We always check the animal health and happiness whenever we go to a new shelter...I imagine those places are horror shows

[Ophidia]

Re: Ethical question: Buying pets

Personally, I adopt from shelters or adopt/purchase unwanted animals from private owners (not breeders). I've bought numerous snakes from people who weren't up to even the limited attention that snakes require. Our dog was from a shelter - she is unpredictable, and has severe food anxiety/food motivation, but at least no food aggression. We wuffs her completely and we're willing to work around her faults.

I believe that breeding or buying dogs, cats & other animals as pets is unethical and short-sighted. People only breed dogs/cats, etc. that they know will sell, the shelters end up full of pit bulls & chihuahuas (at least here in NV & CA). Our shelters out here are also overflowing with older pets, which is truly sad. If my husband wasn't such a softie, I would foster old dogs all the time, give 'em a home & fun & love before they cross the Rainbow Bridge, ya know?

[KarrinMurphy]

Re: Ethical question: Buying pets

I think cats and dogs are domesticated animals who can't survive by themselves, and it's our fsult. Therefor, I think it's our job to care for them. But I don't agree with buying pets from stores or breeders because

A) there are dogs and cats in shelters and on the streets, so there is no need to breed more. Especially because breeding creates physical and psychological problems for the animals being born. Mutts are healthier, and not afflicted with gross physical ailments that breeding creates. Also, I think breeding is animal objectification, commodification, and subjugation, which I am decided not down with, and

B) puppy mills. Puppy mills and the like are disgusting and inhumane, and 99.99999% of pets in stores come from these places.

Away from dogs and cats, I believe that animals whose breeds are not yet domesticated should be left alone to live the way they want, lest they fall into the same problem that dogs and cats have, of not being able to survive healthily in the wild. So, no snakes, no birds, no lizards, no hamsters, no rabbits, no fish, etc. unless the animal struggles with something that otherwise renders them dependent on human care.

[Denarius]

Re: Ethical question: Buying pets

I think cats and dogs are domesticated animals who can't survive by themselves, and it's our fsult.

They can though. Have you never heard of feral dogs or cats?

[Ophidia]

Re: Ethical question: Buying pets

They can though. Have you never heard of feral dogs or cats?

True dat. Las Vegas is dependent on its huge feral cat population for rodent control. Our tourist mecca would be over-run with rats & mice (the urban foxes and coyotes play their part, too) and possibly hanta virus & the plague.

We also have a neighborhood that has feral bunnies, which provide yet more meals for the feral cats & urban wildlife.

[KarrinMurphy]

Re: Ethical question: Buying pets

They can though. Have you never heard of feral dogs or cats?

The average lifespan of an indoor-only cat is about 12-15 years, while a feral cat's average lifespan is 5. Dogs are roughly the same.

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Roughly. Ruff-ly. Dogs. Get it, because-