Scottish Vote for Independence

[Doc_Holliday]

Re: Scottish Vote for Independence

Anyways, I support the Scots. My main concern is that they maintain good relations with England (The whole nine yards, an undefended border, strong trade, maybe an alliance.) As it is important that the nations of the isles help each other out, being that England isn't the superpower it once was.

[DanieMarie]

Re: Scottish Vote for Independence

I imagine it would be no worse than relations with any other EU country. But if the UK is worried about things like defence and economic ties, it should probably work on its relationship with the EU (especially Germany and Scandinavia) rather than continuing on the current path it's on.

[Tylluan Penry]

Re: Scottish Vote for Independence

I imagine it would be no worse than relations with any other EU country. But if the UK is worried about things like defence and economic ties, it should probably work on its relationship with the EU (especially Germany and Scandinavia) rather than continuing on the current path it's on.

Very true - the UK is embarrassingly anti-Europe, conveniently forgetting how unstable Europe used to be. It's almost as though they want a return to that.

As for the borders, I sincerely doubt that anyone is going to put Hadrian's Wall into operation again.

[DanieMarie]

Re: Scottish Vote for Independence

Very true - the UK is embarrassingly anti-Europe, conveniently forgetting how unstable Europe used to be. It's almost as though they want a return to that.

As for the borders, I sincerely doubt that anyone is going to put Hadrian's Wall into operation again.

Haha exactly. I mean, Europe definitely has its problems and there are major issues with the EU. I can see why people oppose it, but it always seems like the UK (at least the Conservatives) opposes the more positive aspects of the EU rather than the more negative ones. They're also very poor at playing nice with other European leaders, even other Conservative leaders. From a defence standpoint, I don't think the rest of Europe would let anyone attack the UK directly, even if it left the EU. But working together with the rest of Europe can be beneficial when it comes to domestic threats and terrorism. When it comes to that stuff, an independent Scotland isn't going to make -that- much of a difference, but weakening relationships with Europe will.

[LunarHarvest]

Re: Scottish Vote for Independence

As for the borders, I sincerely doubt that anyone is going to put Hadrian's Wall into operation again.

Very true.
Scotland can always remain a part of the CTA and avoid some of the issues 'Better Together' people bring up, though I have the feeling that Cameron is going to make it as difficult as possible for them to do so.

[Larix]

Re: Scottish Vote for Independence


Towering in gallant fame

Scotland my mountain hame

High may your proud standards

Gloriously wave!

Land of my high endeavor

Land of the shining river

Land of my heart forever

Scotland the brave!






Read more: Scotland The Brave - An Unofficial National Anthem http://www.scottish-at-heart.com/sco...#ixzz3CIFz617C

[DanieMarie]

Re: Scottish Vote for Independence

Very true.
Scotland can always remain a part of the CTA and avoid some of the issues 'Better Together' people bring up, though I have the feeling that Cameron is going to make it as difficult as possible for them to do so.

You know, I think there's a lot of posturing going on with all political parties on these issues. They're all saying that they will not cooperate (won't let Scotland use the pound, etc) with an independent Scotland because they don't want Scotland to vote "Yes." They want people to think that a "No" vote will be the only way to have a healthy future. In reality, they will probably have to let Scotland remain a part of various agreements (if it wants to), because trade with Scotland and travel between Scotland and the UK isn't just going to disappear and it would be highly disadvantageous for the UK to dissolve those ties.

I think the same can be said for the EU, to an extent. Some analysts are saying that the EU would likely block Scotland's membership because they fear separatists in their own countries, but I think it will work differently in practice. First of all, blocking Scotland from EU membership does not change the fact that Scotland successfully voted to become independent (assuming it does so), which would be the big influencer in other separatist movements. Second of all, what does blocking a stable, wealthy country (assuming it becomes one) do, exactly? I can see the EU waiting a few years to ensure that an independent Scotland -does- become a stable country, but I can't see it being blocked forever.

[Doc_Holliday]

Re: Scottish Vote for Independence

Just thought I'd drop an article about the ol' Harpermeister and his opinion on the debate.

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2014/09/03/prime_minister_stephen_harper_backs_united_britain.html

[DanieMarie]

Re: Scottish Vote for Independence

Just thought I'd drop an article about the ol' Harpermeister and his opinion on the debate.

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2...d_britain.html

Considering that I almost never agree with Harper and am pretty distanced from the Conservative party agenda, it's no surprise that I don't agree with him here

I really dislike what he said about separatism being "not normal politics." Why not, exactly? First of all, national identities aside, separatist debates tend to gain more force when something else is going wrong in a country. When I look at the state of the UK at the moment, I'm not surprised that the Scots want out. I'd want out. On the flip side, looking at the state of Canada in the years leading up to the last election, it's easy to see why a lot of Quebecers would want to remain a part of Canada. I think the overwhelming defeat of the Bloc Quebecois in the last election also had a lot to do with the persona of Jack Layton and the direction the NDP party took under his leadership. Why separate when a party that shares many of your political views gains a lot of momentum in the country? Unlike Scotland, Quebec actually has a lot of political sway in Canada, as a good chunk of the population lives there and there are a lot of ridings in the province. We'll see what happens in the next election now that "Le Bon Jack" has passed away. I think Justin Trudeau could also attract Quebec voters and many still support the NDP under Mulcair, but separatist voices are growing (and once again, I think there are other reasons behind this).

I also hate it when people use separatist debates in their own countries to slam down Scottish independence. No two places are the same, and Scottish independence and Quebec independence (or Basque independence, Bavarian independence, etc) are not the same thing. Quebec is not Scotland and Canada is (thankfully) not the UK. I guess I can see how people would connect the two, but I do wish they would stop it and learn to differentiate between places. It could have some strong implications on Quebec and its separatist agenda, but that doesn't mean it would work out the same way.

I do like that he opened by saying that it was ultimately up to the Scots, though.

[Larix]

Re: Scottish Vote for Independence

I also hate it when people use separatist debates in their own countries to slam down Scottish independence. No two places are the same, and Scottish independence and Quebec independence (or Basque independence, Bavarian independence, etc) are not the same thing. Quebec is not Scotland and Canada is (thankfully) not the UK. I guess I can see how people would connect the two, but I do wish they would stop it and learn to differentiate between places. It could have some strong implications on Quebec and its separatist agenda, but that doesn't mean it would work out the same way.

I am with you there all the way!

[toxicyarnglare]

Re: Scottish Vote for Independence

Personally, I do believe Scotland should have independence. I think it's as simple as, if a people want to be independent from a country, they should be allowed to do so. No questions asked. This may be a crude and unpopular comparison, but think of it like a relationship. Someone wants out of the relationship for whatever reason, but chooses not to, due to being financially sound with the other person (if they're living together), or having access to the same car, etc.

To be honest I haven't been following it that much, other than hearing that it's happening, so I can't really make many educated comments.

I understand why North Americans aren't as wary of war...North America has never had a modern war on its own soil. It has had attacks, but not a full-blown war. You don't have entire blocks of your city or even entire sections of major highways closed because construction crews found an active bomb from a war fought 70 years ago. You don't visit "historic cities" where the only actual historic thing is the entrance to the old city gate because 97% of the historic city was decimated. You don't have bombed out buildings left like that as a reminder. Most of you don't have grandparents who remember huddling in fear in cellars in the night during bomb raids. When it comes to WWII, people understand why it happened and don't feel bitter towards the British or the Americans over it...the Nazis brought on the war directly by invading countries in succession, getting involved in the Spanish Civil War in a big way, and showing no signs of stopping. They provoked the Allies in major ways by bombing London, which brought on a lot of the destruction we still see in Germany today. But that being said, the whole experience has made this country not a big fan of war. It's not going to go to war so close to home unless a country attacks it. People barely even tolerated going to Afghanistan.

I sometimes feel like Americans are a bit naive when it comes to war. I get and respect that there are a lot of people there who have fought in them and experienced it first-hand, but the vast majority of people have NO idea what war is and what it means. Over here, people my age don't know a whole lot about it either but we still feel some of the consequences. It makes you wary of it.

Not wanting to get too off topic, but I want to comment on this. While a lot of people in the younger generation do not like the wars the US has been in, I think you would still be surprised at the large population of people who think we should just "nuke the entire Middle East." Not to mention people think we should be going to war with China or Russia. The tea party and religious groups are so in fear, that I believe if we elect a president that's far enough to the right, we may be seeing a lot of wars starting, similar to how Iraq started, and the world would have even better reason to hate us. Of course, if that occurred, I would be protesting my ass off.

[Tylluan Penry]

Re: Scottish Vote for Independence

For anyone who believes that going to war is always the best answer, I would recommend watching a film called Joyeux Noel. Don't let the title put you off - it's in French, German and English but has subtitles. It's based on a true story, about the impromptu amnesty called by the troops themselves, one Christmas Eve in World War One. Many of the officers and men were punished in one way or another afterwards, because it was regarded as fraternising - but the point I'm making is that once people of different races and beliefs get to know each other - the ordinary people - they realise they are all the same, with the same interests, hopes and fears. And then - as happens in the film, - they really don't want to kill each other any more.

The same applies to the modern day. We foster fear, a sense of otherness about the rest of the world. As a rule we don't bother learning other languages. We listen to the media peddling lies and promoting fear.

There is nothing to be afraid of in an independent Scotland, or an independent anything, come to that. Scotland has been independent before, for over a thousand years, and it can be so again. It has - culturally, politically and historically - little in common with England. It is not going to move away geographically speaking because we still share a land border. It just wants its self respect back.

[Carlin]

Re: Scottish Vote for Independence

It just wants its self respect back.

This! Exactly this.

[Quetzal]

Re: Scottish Vote for Independence

It has - culturally, politically and historically - little in common with England.

To be fair, most places in England don't have much in common with most other places in England. The UK is a pretty diverse place like that.
If the North could gain independence from the south, I'd be all over that :P Long live the great Republic of Mancunia!

[Tylluan Penry]

Re: Scottish Vote for Independence

To be fair, most places in England don't have much in common with most other places in England. The UK is a pretty diverse place like that.
If the North could gain independence from the south, I'd be all over that :P Long live the great Republic of Mancunia!

Very true. I mean, Cornwall wants it's independence, and Yorkshire... maybe it would all work, too!