Homelessness a crime?,or something to be treated with kindness and compassion?

[LunarHarvest]

Re: Homelessness a crime?,or something to be treated with kindness and compassion?

There are a lot of situations here where people DO work, but still have to claim benefits because their pay doesn't cover their basic necessities. A sizeable percentage of people who claim Harz IV (welfare) actually ARE employed, and some of them are even employed full time. It's not a majority, but it's enough to count for something (around 1/3 is the estimate, and that number is growing as real wages keep stagnating). To be honest, I really don't blame people who say "screw this, I have to claim benefits anyway and I don't see any way out...why even bother?" If you're born into that life, the chances that you feel that way are even higher.

We don't need to cut welfare and kick people to the curb. We need to create working environments with fair pay, benefits, and good working conditions. We also need to keep working to make job training and career counselling accessible (I think the Arbeitsamt is on the right track with this, so here they should just keep it up). Most people WANT to work. Being unemployed is horribly boring...I can't name a single person who would prefer that over a fair job, not even the few benefits abusers I've encountered during my time here. I think it's fair to take measures so that people who are truly abusing the system are punished. I think, in a country where wages are fair and workers rights are properly protected, we can cut benefits for people who turn down job interview and job offers. As of now, that's not the case.

I couldn't agree more with what you have to say here.
In my opinion there is no reason that a person should not be able to properly meet their needs, and then some, working a single full-time position, and I would view such a thing as among the most basic of human economic rights alongside the right to a situation. Lacking a proper situation, wages or benefits for the people of the country represents, in my opinion, a serious neglect of government towards the economic needs and security of the population. Homelessness amongst the population is also a sign that the most basic of human rights is not assured or secured by that nation's government.

In addition, market economic structures require an army of unemployed workers to be labour to draw from for the growth of business enterprise, and to keep wages and benefits at the lowest rates possible. It then falls on government to regulate business, use welfare programmes to make up the difference, and use state agencies and programmes to achieve as close to full employment of the labour force as is possible. In my opinion, this is just a part of the basic role of government in society.

[Heka]

Hence my comment in a previous post on only being able to choose form what's on offer when voting, if they're all douchebags who supports a douchy system the only real chance of getting a non-dounchy government would be a revolution.

Lol, can you imagine aussies having a revolution? !?!?!!?

Here we also have two parties (labour (left) and liberal (right)). I vote greens (more left) which are slowly wonning more seats, but it's still two party. In fact when I vote, I vote 'below the line' an put all major parties (including greens) last, because otherwise, the government jas already decided where the votes will go

[Hawkfeathers]

Re: Homelessness a crime?,or something to be treated with kindness and compassion?

I actually know people here in the midwestern USA who want a revolution. They want their version of Christianity to be integrated into government, and they want to kill off people who don't believe as they do, women to stay home, etc. Yet they will argue to the death that they are NOTHING like the taliban. They are serious - but of course, they have a lot of things completely wrong. Like how they're gonna protect their dirt roads and trailer homes from military tanks and choppers by wearing camo and firing off their gun collections.

[thalassa]

Re: Homelessness a crime?,or something to be treated with kindness and compassion?

I guess in a shorter way, I'm saying "Prove to me that you deserve the help, and sure, I'll lend a hand. But if you can't, get off your ass and give it some effort instead of waiting for something to hand it to you."

If they funded programs better (in the US), they better investigate suspect claims and to weed out fraud. Instead, they can barely process people that need the help in a timely manner. Also, if you look at the statistics involving government assistance, fraud is no higher than it is anywhere else, and most of the time it works exactly as it should.

My question is this--Have you reported your coworker? Clearly you know he's doing something that is technically illegal. How many people know he's doing this? How many chances was that, where someone could have reported him and the government could have had an opportunity to fix the situation. Its really easy to blame the system for people taking advantage of it, but if you actually care about the fact that people are taking advantage of it and fail to act, its not like you are blameless either.

Personally, I see fraud for what it is--its the same inefficiency in the system that you see in a mechanical system, and as such, you should plan to use a certain amount of resources to control it as much as possible, but in the end you accept that it will occur...because it occurs everywhere (and possibly more among people with money). The relatively low percentage of cases that are likely fraud is worth the number of people that are helped. Most families and individuals use those monies exactly as they should. I don't begrude a family of four their food stamps just because we made $40 too much to get them when we first got out of the military--we were lucky enough to have retirement funds to liquidate to pay the bills, and family to help with things like groceries and babysitting, the GI bill to cover rent, and the state's health care program for my kids, and the VA for our health care....if we hadn't had those things, I don't know what we would have done.

ETA: Also, you are drug screened to get a job because you are a liability to the business you are seeking work for, if you are using drugs in a number of ways. Other than the fact that it doesn't work and the cost to the state is rediculous for the number of people found to be using... It would be a better use of resources to offer these people treatment.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Homelessness a crime?,or something to be treated with kindness and compassion?

Here's an interesting Blog post (it is actually a book review) that has some good points to make -

The main point being that we've become a pretty stagnant society, and our great time of advancement seems to be somewhere in the past, because our leaders are so busy kissing up that they have no vision left.

For example, can jobs be created in the public sector by the government investing in repairing, upgrading, or constructing the kind of public works projects that were done during the depression - bridges, tunnels, dams, etc.?

The CCC (Civilian Conservation Corps) were nice...

Artists and photographers were hired to document the times...

Currently, funding for science gets cut if it conflicts with some marginal religion, bridges and dams are crumbling, and the whole infrastructure of the country is slipping down the tubes. Sounds like we're in the decadent stage of culture...

[thalassa]

Re: Homelessness a crime?,or something to be treated with kindness and compassion?

Here's an interesting Blog post (it is actually a book review) that has some good points to make -

(snip)

Currently, funding for science gets cut if it conflicts with some marginal religion, bridges and dams are crumbling, and the whole infrastructure of the country is slipping down the tubes. Sounds like we're in the decadent stage of culture...

Yup.

Our priorities are in the wrong place. IMO--we are too focused on money as the sign of success (or failure).

The Coast Guard has a saying---"If you put personnel first, the mission will follow"

Government programs have done just as much as private industry, when it comes to inspiring and investing in innovation. Most the our modern appliances and convienences had their start as government projects (either on purpose--ARPANET or accident--the microwave). But hey, the government never did anything...except make a multibillion dollar pen when they could have used a pencil.

Which brings me to my favorite rant..."burdensome regulations"

When people lament "burdensom government regualtions" they forget is that (at least in my field) the reason for those regulations is the literal payment of people's lives when we don't have them, not to mention public safety, public health, and the protection of natural resources for the use of future generations (even if some people don't value biodiversity, they should at least be able to appreciate that)...but, what they fail to understand or recognize is that regulation creates more industry than it stymies--someone has to make hearing protection, someone has to inspect our bridges, someone has to sell the guard for the machinery that prevents an employee from losing an arm (and suing the crud out of the employer). AND the idea that regulation crushes industry is false---for example, this company put one idea (employee safety) as their most important standard of success, and raked in the dough over time because it changed their entire corporate culture and productivity.

If we (as a country) put people first--if we put those programs and policies that serve the people first, then the mission (a prosperous country in more ways than $$$) will follow.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Homelessness a crime?,or something to be treated with kindness and compassion?

So much potential, so little actualization.

Ah well, the golden age of the species always lies somewhere in the lost past.

Time to look forward, methinks, or just find a cozy cave somewhere.

[nbdy]

Re: Homelessness a crime?,or something to be treated with kindness and compassion?

So upon catching up on the posts here I am struck by two things: (1) political pessimism and (2) the idea that people should get what they "deserve."

I am bothered by the pessimism because negativity never did nothing. Yes, we all understand that the system is rigged, it is the only way to explain an over 90% incumbency rate at a legislative body with about a 10% approval rating. We don't want to stop there and throw our hands in the air like we don't care (hehe) but decide what the cure for this illness would be and then work at it. I agree that violence is not a preferred response because like breeds like. What we need is for all of these people willing to die for their ideals to be willing to live for their ideals, which is actually a lot harder.

As for people getting only those things they deserve -- this seems more a rationalization than an action plan. Did I deserve to be born white and middle-class in the U.S.? It is a status that certainly came with a lot of perks -- I guess I deserved every one of them. On what basis, I don't know, but since we only get what we deserve, I guess I had it coming. Yes, I am being sarcastic, which is probably a poor excuse for argument, but my point is that who decides what a particular person does or does not deserve? For some things it seems self-evident. For example, if I intentionally set my hair on fire and then have scars, well, I deserve to have scars because I made a choice without coercion by any other with foreseeable consequences. But even something that seems as clean cut as that gets tricky, because what if I have some manner of mental illness so that I did not understand the consequences of the action? Did I deserve to be mentally ill?

When I studied the issue of homelessness over 20 years ago about 1/3 of the street people had a history of mental illness. They were not incarcerated because they were not seen as a danger to self or others, but they also were not able to manage on their own and there was no support for them outside of institutionalization. When I mentioned this to one of the heartless, Godly people in my family she responded that the mental illness was God's judgment upon them, that they "deserved" to be homeless because they were not acceptable to God in some way. I replied, "But what if God is not so much judging them as testing the rest of us?" She did not want to think about things in those terms at all.

[anunitu]

Re: Homelessness a crime?,or something to be treated with kindness and compassion?

So don't worry,be happy,when the robots take over no one will go hungry(Cause the robots will have killed all the pesky humans)

Open the bay doors Hal....Hal?? HAL!!!!!!!!!!

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Homelessness a crime?,or something to be treated with kindness and compassion?

I am bothered by the pessimism because negativity never did nothing. Yes, we all understand that the system is rigged, it is the only way to explain an over 90% incumbency rate at a legislative body with about a 10% approval rating. We don't want to stop there and throw our hands in the air like we don't care (hehe) but decide what the cure for this illness would be and then work at it. I agree that violence is not a preferred response because like breeds like. What we need is for all of these people willing to die for their ideals to be willing to live for their ideals, which is actually a lot harder.

This is the point I've been trying to make, but stated much better.

We have the power to bring change.
We have the equipment to make change.
We have the procedures in place to make change.
BUT (and it's a big, fat but)
We don't have the will to make change, choosing instead to retreat into fantasies of revolution.

[DanieMarie]

Re: Homelessness a crime?,or something to be treated with kindness and compassion?

So upon catching up on the posts here I am struck by two things: (1) political pessimism and (2) the idea that people should get what they "deserve."

I am bothered by the pessimism because negativity never did nothing. Yes, we all understand that the system is rigged, it is the only way to explain an over 90% incumbency rate at a legislative body with about a 10% approval rating. We don't want to stop there and throw our hands in the air like we don't care (hehe) but decide what the cure for this illness would be and then work at it. I agree that violence is not a preferred response because like breeds like. What we need is for all of these people willing to die for their ideals to be willing to live for their ideals, which is actually a lot harder.

As for people getting only those things they deserve -- this seems more a rationalization than an action plan. Did I deserve to be born white and middle-class in the U.S.? It is a status that certainly came with a lot of perks -- I guess I deserved every one of them. On what basis, I don't know, but since we only get what we deserve, I guess I had it coming. Yes, I am being sarcastic, which is probably a poor excuse for argument, but my point is that who decides what a particular person does or does not deserve? For some things it seems self-evident. For example, if I intentionally set my hair on fire and then have scars, well, I deserve to have scars because I made a choice without coercion by any other with foreseeable consequences. But even something that seems as clean cut as that gets tricky, because what if I have some manner of mental illness so that I did not understand the consequences of the action? Did I deserve to be mentally ill?

When I studied the issue of homelessness over 20 years ago about 1/3 of the street people had a history of mental illness. They were not incarcerated because they were not seen as a danger to self or others, but they also were not able to manage on their own and there was no support for them outside of institutionalization. When I mentioned this to one of the heartless, Godly people in my family she responded that the mental illness was God's judgment upon them, that they "deserved" to be homeless because they were not acceptable to God in some way. I replied, "But what if God is not so much judging them as testing the rest of us?" She did not want to think about things in those terms at all.

I can't speak for everyone, just for myself, but even though I'm very pessimistic, I don't just take my disappointment in the system lying down. I'm pretty politically active. I vote, get involved in petitions (which have some standing here...there is a petitions committee that has to look at petitions with enough signatures and look into issues that demonstrate a lot of support), blog, protest, and occasionally write letters

I may even run for office one day. I'm not sure. I know a couple of people who have done it and I admire that a lot.