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Torture: The good news is...

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    #16
    Re: Torture: The good news is...

    Originally posted by B. de Corbin View Post
    Maybe they should change the Eighth Amendment from: "Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted," to: "Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted, unless some dude in the CIA who is not answerable for his actions in an American, or any other, court of law decides it would be a good idea."
    If you're going to use the Constitution to be snarky then use the correct Amendment. Torture as a tool of interrogation is a breach of Amendment 5 and your protections against self incrimination. The only way the Eigth has any bearing whatsoever is if a court decides after you've been convicted to sentence you to 5 years of daily torture or some equivalent nonsense that the CIA generally has better ways to kill time than get involved with.
    life itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.

    Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

    "But those men who know anything at all about the Light also know that there is a fierceness to its power, like the bare sword of the law, or the white burning of the sun." Suddenly his voice sounded to Will very strong, and very Welsh. "At the very heart, that is. Other things, like humanity, and mercy, and charity, that most good men hold more precious than all else, they do not come first for the Light. Oh, sometimes they are there; often, indeed. But in the very long run the concern of you people is with the absolute good, ahead of all else..."

    John Rowlands, The Grey King by Susan Cooper

    "You come from the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve", said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth; be content."

    Aslan, Prince Caspian by CS Lewis


    Comment

      #17
      Re: Torture: The good news is...

      Originally posted by MaskedOne View Post
      If you're going to use the Constitution to be snarky then use the correct Amendment. Torture as a tool of interrogation is a breach of Amendment 5 and your protections against self incrimination. The only way the Eigth has any bearing whatsoever is if a court decides after you've been convicted to sentence you to 5 years of daily torture or some equivalent nonsense that the CIA generally has better ways to kill time than get involved with.
      Oops...

      Caught by the cops yet again. So much for a quicky internet search...
      Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

      Comment

        #18
        Re: Torture: The good news is...

        Shrug, breach of either still presents problems but a defense against charges related to 8 is much, much easier than defending against accusations connected to 5.
        life itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.

        Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

        "But those men who know anything at all about the Light also know that there is a fierceness to its power, like the bare sword of the law, or the white burning of the sun." Suddenly his voice sounded to Will very strong, and very Welsh. "At the very heart, that is. Other things, like humanity, and mercy, and charity, that most good men hold more precious than all else, they do not come first for the Light. Oh, sometimes they are there; often, indeed. But in the very long run the concern of you people is with the absolute good, ahead of all else..."

        John Rowlands, The Grey King by Susan Cooper

        "You come from the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve", said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth; be content."

        Aslan, Prince Caspian by CS Lewis


        Comment

          #19
          Re: Torture: The good news is...

          Nice try B. De.,points for thinking,less points for jumping to quickly into a marsh of much bog and mud...Or is that Mire..getting mired in a swamp of quicksand,and having no floatation device..
          MAGIC is MAGIC,black OR white or even blood RED

          all i ever wanted was a normal life and love.
          NO TERF EVER WE belong Too.
          don't stop the tears.let them flood your soul.




          sigpic

          my new page here,let me know what you think.


          nothing but the shadow of what was

          witchvox
          http://www.witchvox.com/vu/vxposts.html

          Comment

            #20
            Re: Torture: The good news is...

            If the gov.'t is desperate enough, there's also a potential (as in the exact phrasing might allow it but I wouldn't want to be the guy to test it) way around 5 but against current opposition the bypass might incur rioting in the streets so it'd be better to just find other routes.
            life itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.

            Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

            "But those men who know anything at all about the Light also know that there is a fierceness to its power, like the bare sword of the law, or the white burning of the sun." Suddenly his voice sounded to Will very strong, and very Welsh. "At the very heart, that is. Other things, like humanity, and mercy, and charity, that most good men hold more precious than all else, they do not come first for the Light. Oh, sometimes they are there; often, indeed. But in the very long run the concern of you people is with the absolute good, ahead of all else..."

            John Rowlands, The Grey King by Susan Cooper

            "You come from the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve", said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth; be content."

            Aslan, Prince Caspian by CS Lewis


            Comment

              #21
              Re: Torture: The good news is...

              This is the negative side of being the "Good guy" country,wearing the white hat comes with a lot of rules about no-no's
              MAGIC is MAGIC,black OR white or even blood RED

              all i ever wanted was a normal life and love.
              NO TERF EVER WE belong Too.
              don't stop the tears.let them flood your soul.




              sigpic

              my new page here,let me know what you think.


              nothing but the shadow of what was

              witchvox
              http://www.witchvox.com/vu/vxposts.html

              Comment

                #22
                Re: Torture: The good news is...

                Originally posted by anunitu View Post
                Nice try B. De.,points for thinking,less points for jumping to quickly into a marsh of much bog and mud...Or is that Mire..getting mired in a swamp of quicksand,and having no floatation device..
                We're keeping score??!!!

                Did I miss the memo???

                Ifin' I'dda known that, I'dda played harder...



                OK, just read the 5th, which establishes "due process of law," preventing confinement without due process, as well as preventing self-incrimination, which would exclude torture...

                ...unless it was done post-conviction (is this your potential work-a-round?), although, at that point, the 8th would kick in, I think (?).
                Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

                Comment

                  #23
                  Re: Torture: The good news is...

                  Originally posted by B. de Corbin View Post
                  We're keeping score??!!!

                  Did I miss the memo???

                  Ifin' I'dda known that, I'dda played harder...



                  OK, just read the 5th, which establishes "due process of law," preventing confinement without due process, as well as preventing self-incrimination, which would exclude torture...

                  ...unless it was done post-conviction (is this your potential work-a-round?), although, at that point, the 8th would kick in, I think (?).
                  Not precisely. The 5th says I can't compel you to incriminate yourself in a criminal trial. It also says that I can't hold you without due process of law. The catch is that if my authority to hold you is not connected to criminal trial (i.e. you're a POW) and I have no desire whatsoever to push criminal charges (and in fact, I'm willing to provide you immunity to criminal prosecution) then your right to keep your mouth shut is no longer protected by a literal interpretation of the 5th.

                  I should note that a number of other laws unconnected to the 5th will happily kick my ass for using this exploit. The other issue is that POW status is supposed to be temporary. I'm supposed to repatriate you when the conflict ends. Tell the population all about some of the individuals we have in custody and then telling them that we're releasing them sounds like all kinds of fun.
                  life itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.

                  Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

                  "But those men who know anything at all about the Light also know that there is a fierceness to its power, like the bare sword of the law, or the white burning of the sun." Suddenly his voice sounded to Will very strong, and very Welsh. "At the very heart, that is. Other things, like humanity, and mercy, and charity, that most good men hold more precious than all else, they do not come first for the Light. Oh, sometimes they are there; often, indeed. But in the very long run the concern of you people is with the absolute good, ahead of all else..."

                  John Rowlands, The Grey King by Susan Cooper

                  "You come from the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve", said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth; be content."

                  Aslan, Prince Caspian by CS Lewis


                  Comment

                    #24
                    Re: Torture: The good news is...

                    So,remember why we sometimes "send" prisoners to other country's to be "dealt with",because those country's have no white hat issues.

                    - - - Updated - - -

                    So,remember why we sometimes "send" prisoners to other country's to be "dealt with",because those country's have no white hat issues. Hmmm,Out sourcing...who would have thought..
                    MAGIC is MAGIC,black OR white or even blood RED

                    all i ever wanted was a normal life and love.
                    NO TERF EVER WE belong Too.
                    don't stop the tears.let them flood your soul.




                    sigpic

                    my new page here,let me know what you think.


                    nothing but the shadow of what was

                    witchvox
                    http://www.witchvox.com/vu/vxposts.html

                    Comment

                      #25
                      Re: Torture: The good news is...

                      OK - Yup, I see that now.

                      I imagine that there is some legal precedent to all this (I'll hire a law clerk to do THAT research), and it would be against the Geneva Conventions (Common Article 3, for those keeping score, anunitu ).
                      Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

                      Comment

                        #26
                        Re: Torture: The good news is...

                        Originally posted by B. de Corbin View Post
                        OK - Yup, I see that now.

                        I imagine that there is some legal precedent to all this (I'll hire a law clerk to do THAT research), and it would be against the Geneva Conventions (Common Article 3, for those keeping score, anunitu ).
                        Yeah the Geneva Conventions tend to frown on this exploit and while exploits exist inside the Conventions, the ones I know of require the other side break the rules first. If one is found guilty of breaking certain rules too often then some additional options open up for their opponents.
                        life itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.

                        Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

                        "But those men who know anything at all about the Light also know that there is a fierceness to its power, like the bare sword of the law, or the white burning of the sun." Suddenly his voice sounded to Will very strong, and very Welsh. "At the very heart, that is. Other things, like humanity, and mercy, and charity, that most good men hold more precious than all else, they do not come first for the Light. Oh, sometimes they are there; often, indeed. But in the very long run the concern of you people is with the absolute good, ahead of all else..."

                        John Rowlands, The Grey King by Susan Cooper

                        "You come from the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve", said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth; be content."

                        Aslan, Prince Caspian by CS Lewis


                        Comment

                          #27
                          Re: Torture: The good news is...

                          Thing is all the rules in the world wont stop someone if they are doing things in secret places...Kidnap and torture,then dispose of the evidence...More likely how torture is practiced generally.
                          MAGIC is MAGIC,black OR white or even blood RED

                          all i ever wanted was a normal life and love.
                          NO TERF EVER WE belong Too.
                          don't stop the tears.let them flood your soul.




                          sigpic

                          my new page here,let me know what you think.


                          nothing but the shadow of what was

                          witchvox
                          http://www.witchvox.com/vu/vxposts.html

                          Comment

                            #28
                            Re: Torture: The good news is...

                            I bet terrorist love American red tape. If I were going to be a terrorist, I would specifically terrorize America. Because when I do get caught, I will be eating my 3 squares a day twiddling my terrorist fingers while Americans decide if they can torture me or not. I'll probably rot in prison while the red tape flows and bleeding hearts flow. I'll probably die with a full belly before someone comes in to rip a nail off.






                            (this is specifically an inflammatory post)
                            Satan is my spirit animal

                            Comment

                              #29
                              Your constitution and amendments confuse me.
                              ThorSon's milkshake brings all the PF girls to the yard - Volcaniclastic

                              RIP

                              I have never been across the way
                              Seen the desert and the birds
                              You cut your hair short
                              Like a shush to an insult
                              The world had been yelling
                              Since the day you were born
                              Revolting with anger
                              While it smiled like it was cute
                              That everything was shit.
                              - J. Wylder

                              Comment

                                #30
                                Re: Torture: The good news is...

                                Originally posted by Heka View Post
                                Your constitution and amendments confuse me.
                                Me too, sista. me too!
                                Satan is my spirit animal

                                Comment

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