Why the need for references in conversation?

[Azvanna]

So, I guess this is going in rants because it kinda annoys me but I'm not annoyed at any person in particular.

Here on PF, there are people that will start asking for proof of whatever kind when someone says something they don't like/agree with. I think it's an over-the-top response for a discussion forum.

In a conversational discussion, isn't it taken for granted that whatever claims are made are a person's opinion? Who stops someone in the middle of a conversation to ask them to cite their words? I'm not saying that speech is the same as text, but I think the principle applies. A conversation is not usually an academic undertaking. People are usually free to voice their opinion and the listener is free to call them on it, or take what they say with a grain of salt.

Demanding people back up their opinions with studies or whatever else is asked for during a conversation is a distraction. It cock-blocks effective communication. One side is left feeling their opinion is not valid unless they go away and do some heavy research while the other side can revert to simply discrediting the other as their come-back. The result is that the conversation is stifled, staggered and sometimes side-tracked.

If someone says something you don't agree with, just say so and say why. If you want to get academic and bring up charts and whatever else to prove your point of view, go ahead. Why is the urge to discredit someone's point of view on matters of opinion so strong? We have sections for academic discussion and debate. Maybe citing your claims could be one of the norms in those sections, but I don't think it's a helpful requirement in other more conversational threads.

I understand there are a few people here who are academically minded. The wealth of knowledge here is what makes the discussion so good!

Take the good with the bad, I suppose.

[Medusa]

Re: Why the need for references in conversation?

I don't think anyone asks for proof when someone is stating their opinion though. It's when someone makes a statement of 'fact'. Then of course I want to know where that fact came from.

I like pickles.
Cool.
Pickles are the creation gods.
Back up buddy. I want some proof other then from a Vlasic's pickle jar there.
Something like that.

[MaskedOne]

Re: Why the need for references in conversation?

I generally have one of three mindsets when asking for a citation

1) I believe you and whatever you just said looks interesting. I want to see more.

2) I doubt you but I haven't personally looked into the issue so I could be wrong. Convince me.

3) I can come up with information directly contradicting you after 5 minutes of google searching and whatever you're attempting to pass off is either outright ignorant or a blatant lie. At this point, demands for citation are one step short of me saying, "You are talking out your ass and the lies you're spewing are harmful, stop RIGHT NOW!"

The exact goal can generally be inferred from tone but asking for a citation is a flexible tool.

[thalassa]

Re: Why the need for references in conversation?

Grand claims require grand support when they aren't tempered with either an implied or a clearly stated "in my opinion", "I believe", "I think", "in my experience", etc. When someone is claiming something that is clearly an opinion as a fact, and using that so-called fact as their verbal weapon of choice, then that person bears the burden of supporting said opinion with actual facts. Particularly when someone is using thinly veiled trolling tactics to be snide and insulting.

(basically what Medusa said)

[Rae'ya]

Re: Why the need for references in conversation?

Az, 80% of the time I completely agree with you. But sometimes I feel that asking for sources is completely valid and useful to the discussion. The rare time I do it is either MO's #3 reason as above, or if someone is consistently pushing the same opinion as fact despite lengthy discussion to the contrary (particularly if the topic has come up in multiple places).

Personally, I only recall a few times here at PF that I felt a citation request was over the top... and none of those are recently.

[thalassa]

Re: Why the need for references in conversation?

And, tbh, when one enters a conversation or community where something is a) not commonly agreed with or b) not commonly known, it is just a basic courtesy to clarify (even if its just with an "IMO"), cite or link your statements to something that backs it up... Especially when people don't know you, and you've not taken the time to know anything else. When someone is on a forum, they have a responsibility to understand the POV and the tenor and tone of the forum they are on--otherwise its like crashing a party.

If I make a statement like "the sky is blue", folks will accept it at face value--most of the time, in most places, the sky *is* a shade of blue...and even if its cloudy, raining, or night time, they know what I mean and will excuse the inaccuracy. If I make a statement like "Thomas Jefferson was an early President of the United States", most Americans ought to know that, a large number of other folks will know that, and if anyone doesn't 5 seconds on Google can confirm the accuracy of said statement. If I make a statement like "I hate peanuts because their texture makes me want to vomit", then that is cool because its clearly your opinion. But when I come out of the blue and make a statement like "Catholicism is the root of all evil in the world", then I should have the intellectual integrity to back it up, and if I don't, I should rightly be called on it.

This isn't a free speech forum. Folks don't get to come here and pin the world's evils on a particular philosophy or religion or race or gender with impunity. A statement like that is not *just conversation* exempt from refutation. Just conversation is talking about how much you hate Tom Cruise or love chocolate cake or what your experience with Druid Oracle cards have been or the significance of Christmas. A conversation is based on statements where a reasonable person can easily take them at face value. If one is engaging in any more serious claim that that, particularly a claim that is going to be controversial to the audience, then they bear the burden of being able to stand up for their words. Its not a conversational cock-block or a distraction, its a logical and reasonable request to a person that has made an extraordinary claim to something that is not commonly accepted or common knowledge.

And, its an effective tool against trolling.

[anunitu]

Re: Why the need for references in conversation?

I also think it depends on the subject matter. If we are arguing(Discussing) car brands and their reliability and abilities,it might become heated without some facts like repair history,speed and handling data.(It might still get heated just because)..There also might be a discussion of "Fictional" characters,and their moral and spiritual selves(Harry Potter,Severus snipe) and it could get heated,even though they are created images. Could also become heated.

But when certain subjects are discussed,things can and do become the spark for intense anger by some,and at times the the citation of "fiction" as fact...(turner diaries might be one)

That last statement "Might" in fact set certain people off for labeling it "Fiction"

Boils down to humans being flawed creatures..the ability to accept our frail and flawed natures might be the key to compassion and care..
BUT,being I am flawed and frail....it is of course just my thoughts and you may find your data points in another direction.

[Denarius]

Re: Why the need for references in conversation?

I tend to only ask for evidence in situations were it is implied but not offered.

I tend toward responding to claims with counterclaims and rebuttals, which is to be expected. If someone sucker punched me, I'd respond in kind and if we're going the whole claim/counterclaim/rebuttal thing then... Well, that's a debate and no longer just a conversation.

You can't debate AT someone you debate WITH someone, it takes two to tango.

[anunitu]

Re: Why the need for references in conversation?

The blanket statement "As everyone is aware" with no background,and trying to assume everyone will accept the statement because the person making said statement "Knows" that everyone else "also Knows" might become a flash point for more intense interaction..you toss out tinder,there is the off chance that flames might be close at hand...

[Willow]

Re: Why the need for references in conversation?

This is why I state 'in my opinion' a lot of the time. ^^

[nbdy]

Re: Why the need for references in conversation?

Pretty much what Masked said.

[SleepingCompass]

Re: Why the need for references in conversation?

I don't think its a bad thing to ask for someone to back up their statements, as long as they do it in a respectful manner; it can be a great learning experience for everyone My problem is when someone has a difference of opinion and feels a need to write their reply in a nasty or disrespectful way.

Granted, that's a very rare occurrence on this forum

[Azvanna]

Re: Why the need for references in conversation?

It is very rare. Thanks for hearing me out and answering! It's really not a massive issue on this forum. I'm not really sure why I felt so strongly about it. I was just reminded of it when I was reading through my 'Today I Learned' thread and someone offered citations and stuff. I don't remember who it was and it's not important, I just felt a bit sad that the person felt the need to offer that kind of thing in a thread that was more conversational. It triggered off memories of other threads I've read that would now probably be in catacombs where when things get heated, someone usually starts asking for a reference. Sometimes it's called for and sometimes it's a way to side-track the conversation. Sometimes it's upstarts getting shut down, and I'm totally cool with that

In general though, I really love being here and listening to people talk. I don't always participate, but I do read a lot.

Sometimes I just pick bones. It's not really a major issue. I feel strongly in the moment and then I temper down. Thank you for letting me be heard.

Also, I do love what Thalassa said about people getting to know the tone of the forum before they post. It annoys me so much when people come on here and start topics without first reading threads that would possibly have answers in them already. Then you just get old arguments started again.

And yeah MO, the times that you would ask for a citation, I think that's a really constructive way to do it.

And just a general announcement: I'm really sorry about the way I write my posts or don't write at all in recent history. I just don't have the time to put effort into it anymore. So pretty much I'm just typing as I think. I hope I get better at that soon.

- - - Updated - - -

Alao, I was em indeed of when I started gaining confidence to post, I started a thread and made some assumptions about general knowledge. It was just the one person who took issue with it, but two posts in and I was being asked for citations that didn't have a whole lot to do with the topic. I found it stifling. I think the person did it to save face so the point of this thread was to get people to think about when and why they might ask for a citation.