Under-age Suffrage

[thalassa]

Do I as a non parent get to get a half vote as well?

You get a whole vote already....Under Demeny voting, kids would get a half vote that their parents decide for them, until they can vote. I don't like this because the Duggars.

But, I think its an interesting idea. (and by interesting, I don't mean I think we should jump all over it, just that its worth a controlled study somewhere to see what happens)

Thing is, old people vote the most. But their decisions have the least impact on them (in terms of time) and the most on everyone else. Demeny voting would (hypothetically) give people with more interest in the long term effects of political decisions (themselves and the next generation) an incentive. I don't think its not problematic, I just think its interesting.


Personally, I think that lowering the voting age is an interesting idea. Maybe not for national elections, but at least for local ones (its been done in some places).

The problem with voting is the same as the problem with pretty much everything humans do...we suck at the long term because we are stuck on our immediate circumstances--statistically speaking, we will nearly always choose that which is against our best interest in the long term for short term gains. Its why conservation doesn't work and why we have a national debt of trillions of dollars.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...-2005Mar1.html

Unless the above has been overruled, minors can't be executed. They can face almost all adult penalties but almost and all are very different things when the one they can't face is lethal injection.

Yeah, the last person convicted as a child was executed in 2003 here. So, until 10 years ago, we still thought it was okay to execute persons that committed crimes as children...but ya know, voting is too much responsbility.

I don't think that (or the fact that it was a 5/4 opinion--only 5 out of 9 highly educated legal professionals can figure out that its wrong to kill kids) impresses me. :/



...voting is so much responsibility that something like 50% of adults don't bother to do it.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Under-age Suffrage

When we, as a society, decide that "children," (however we define them) are, in some way, different from adults - a decision made obvious by not allowing them to work dangerous jobs (child labor laws), or forcing them into schools against their will (compulsory education laws), or protecting them from older people who may manipulate them sexually (statutory rape laws) - we can't also say they are the same as competent adults.

Look at the flaw in logic here. If they can make important decisions in the voting booth, why can't they make important decisions about work, education, and sex?

I have to admit - I'm not a big fan of democratic voting. With roughly 50% of the population being of below average intelligence, it looks flawed from the get-go. Unfortunately, I don't have the smarts to figure out a better way which is also not subject to even bigger problems, so I figure we're stuck with it (fortunately, I'm an existentialist, so it doesn't matter...).

I'd rather raise the voting age to thirty, and allow younger people to vote IF they can pass a test on how the (US) government works, AND on current events, AND on basic science, AND, possibly, a few other things (like point to North America on a map) which could be debated and decided.

These arguments presented in the opening post:

...Also, I'll add to this that in some cases minors can be held to contractual obligations in their names.
You can join the military 30 days before you 17th birthday with parental permission and get married at 16 in some states.

... would be better served by raising those ages, than by using them as reasons for lowering the voting age.

I don't know what to do about taxation without representation, though, I'll admit.

[thalassa]

Re: Under-age Suffrage

Well, what is the purpose of voting?

If the purpose of voting is to give people who are affected by the decisions made by those voted for a say in determining their own interests, then children are affected more and for longer than an adult. They have more of a vested interest than adults do in the outcome of elections simply by virtue of time.

This is regardless of whether or not they are "competent" to know right from wrong or make complex decisions. A good number of adults can't manage this.

But, if the purpose of voting is somehow to make *good* decisions about representation, then sure...figure out a methodology to determine that and go for it.


I'm just saying the ages we have chosen for *pretty much everything* are fairly meaningless. And yes, children aren't adults...but that doesn't mean they (some of them at least...probably about as many as adults) aren't intelligent enough to vote. Or at least, that the ones interested enough to go to the trouble of voting wouldn't do just as well as an adult. Adults are just as incompetent at decision making as children, they just have more experience at it and some of them get better with time.


ETA:

... would be better served by raising those ages, than by using them as reasons for lowering the voting age.

I don't necessairly disagree.

Personally I think we'd be better off deciding these things more thoughtfully.

I don't know what to do about taxation without representation, though, I'll admit.

If you (an individual) pay taxes you get to vote.

(which also has problems)

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Under-age Suffrage

Aren't both of those the purpose of voting - to watch out for one's own best interest, while also creating an effective governing body?

I will agree that the age number is something like meaningless - it may have something to do with averages (although I doubt if anybody has ever figured an "average" age for intellectual competence, since we can't even define the thing), and nothing to do with individuals.

However, I am still of the opinion that raising the age is a better option than lowering. There is a thing called "depth of experience" that comes into play - a thing which teenagers often imagine they have in abundance, which seems to me to be a clear indication that they don't even know what it is. Also, wisdom (an admittedly rare quality even in adults) does not come with birth, it comes with experiencing the school of hard knocks, and surviving, without going mad.

[thalassa]

Re: Under-age Suffrage

Aren't both of those the purpose of voting - to watch out for one's own best interest, while also creating an effective governing body?

I will agree that the age number is something like meaningless - it may have something to do with averages (although I doubt if anybody has ever figured an "average" age for intellectual competence, since we can't even define the thing), and nothing to do with individuals.

However, I am still of the opinion that raising the age is a better option than lowering. There is a thing called "depth of experience" that comes into play - a thing which teenagers often imagine they have in abundance, which seems to me to be a clear indication that they don't even know what it is. Also, wisdom (an admittedly rare quality even in adults) does not come with birth, it comes with experiencing the school of hard knocks, and surviving, without going mad.

You should make this an assignment...just to see what comes out of it

Position paper, FTW

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Under-age Suffrage

You should make this an assignment...just to see what comes out of it

Position paper, FTW

LOL - I would send you copies of all of them to make you change your mind...

:bounce:

[DanieMarie]

Re: Under-age Suffrage

In Germany, the UK, and many other European countries, you can finish school at 16 and go work, do an apprenticeship, or do some other job training. Doing your government exams (A-levels and the equivalent) is totally optional, and generally only a route that people who want to go to university take. A lot of people that age go off on their own at that point and start their working lives.

In Germany and several other EU countries, you can buy beer or wine at 16. You can't drive, though. There are definitely several levels of responsibility you get at that age that you don't get in North America, but also a few you don't.

I think if you can become financially independent and start planning your future, you can vote. A lot of 16 year olds are morons, but so are a lot of 18 and 20 year olds. I actually think I was more responsible and civic minded at 16 than I was at 22 (my belated "teen" rebellion years).