Questions about Gnosticism

[cesara]

Re: Questions about Gnosticism

[quote author=Yazichestvo link=topic=1036.msg19468#msg19468 date=1291356574]
No worries.
The role of Christ as "the word" or logos is part of what intrigues me. [snip][/quote]

On this -- I found a most beautiful piece of Sethian literature that describes the Divine Triad - Father/Mother/Son who's descent to earth are symbolized as Voice/Speech/Word.

It's called Three Forms of First Thought [or, Trimorphic Protennoia]

It is broken into 3 fragments, each representing a single descent to earth by each part of the Triad. The Word's descent is the 3rd part. I think it's important to recognize that it is the triad as a whole that makes it possible for The Word to descend. There can be so much discussion just on this one piece of work!

Here is a piece:

I am the Word who dwells in the ineffable Voice. I dwell in undefiled Light and a Thought revealed itself perceptibly through the great Speech of the Mother, although it is a male offspring that supports me as my foundation. And it (the Speech) exists from the beginning in the foundations of the All.

I think "Three Forms" is one of my favorite gnostic texts now....

[cesara]

Re: Questions about Gnosticism

[quote author=Deseret link=topic=1036.msg19558#msg19558 date=1291395705]
Wow, cesara, it looks like I have a lot of reading to do. Great thread, +1!

When you have time, I'd really love it if you could talk about the feminine divine in Gnosticism. You wrote a great response once to something I said on the pre-crash forum about that.
[/quote]

Thanks, Des. I will DEFINITELY be talking about the feminine divine as that is a large part of gnostic thought and philosophy. It is a rather comprehensive, but absolutely fascinating concept!

Today I want to try and finish describing the different gnostic sects and finish the Qs......then we can get into Sophia/Eve/Mary

[cesara]

Re: Questions about Gnosticism

Mandaean Gnosticism

The Mandaeans are one of the only surviving gnostic sects from antiquity, although much of their traditions were shrouded in mystery in the past due to their geographical isolation and wariness toward outsiders. There is currently a growing number of researchers with an interest in Mandaean studies.

The word Mandaeaninverse exegesisnot seen as a Gnostic Christian sect.

With the turmoil in the Gulf, Mandaeans from Iraq and Iran are moving to the USA, Australia and other countries.

Sample of Mandaean Text: The Ginza

[Gwen]

Re: Questions about Gnosticism

[quote author=cesara link=topic=1036.msg19342#msg19342 date=1291325026]
The role of Christ as a Messenger or "The Word" is an important one in the structure of gnostic thought (though I wouldn't say that it is absolutely critical). The concept of "The Christ", a "Messiah" or 'Redeemer' is absolutely and originally a Jewish concept that was appropriated by Christianity and used to describe Jesus within a new set of parameters. Gnosticism also appropriated the concept of The Christ and also ascribed the title to certain players in their mythologies of which some included Jesus. However, not always is Christ represented by Jesus in gnostic literature. (I realize you are not saying this, but I wanted to say it so as to eliminate any confusion for those who are reading) Further, those that do acknowledge Jesus as The Christ reject the dualistic quality [being both God and Man at the same time] that classic Christian doctrine ascribes to him. Some suggest he is an angel, while others suggest he is all God, and the 'man' who was on earth was actually just a 'shadow', and he never had an actual physical form. You can see how this would negate much of what Christianity ascribes to in relation to Jesus and his offer of salvation: if he is only an angel, how can he give full salvation? If he is all God, his sacrifice and passion are nullified. That said, and this is just my humble opinion -- acknowledging Jesus as The Christ allowed gnostics to reach out and proselytize to early Christians in a way that they could understand, so, in a sense, the concept was a tool for proselytization.
[/quote]

Thanks for this and all the awesome info on this thread. I shouldn't be surprised that we're dealing with fuzzy borders and definitions here... I know the Messianic idea has been variously central or peripheral to different Jewish movements (up to and including the Sabbatians). I'd thought of Judaism as specifically rejecting the importance of Jesus, but it makes sense that there were groups that simply treated him as a different sort of being in relation to God.

[cesara]

Re: Questions about Gnosticism

[quote author=Gwen link=topic=1036.msg19870#msg19870 date=1291505361]
Thanks for this and all the awesome info on this thread. I shouldn't be surprised that we're dealing with fuzzy borders and definitions here... I know the Messianic idea has been variously central or peripheral to different Jewish movements (up to and including the Sabbatians). [/quote]

You're welcome! And, fuzziness indeed. Thanks for the link on the Sabbatians....interesting stuff!


[quote author=Gwen link=topic=1036.msg19870#msg19870 date=1291505361]
I'd thought of Judaism as specifically rejecting the importance of Jesus, but it makes sense that there were groups that simply treated him as a different sort of being in relation to God.
[/quote]
Exactly....rejecting the importance of Jesus, yes, but of The Messiah, no.

Two good examples of gnostic communities where Jesus plays no role at all is Hermeticism and the Mandaeans. Both, however, make room for a Messenger figure (logos) who aids in moving people to gnosis.

And of course Islam makes room for Jesus as a prophet, just not the son of God.

[Ophidia]

Re: Questions about Gnosticism

[quote author=cesara link=topic=1036.msg19279#msg19279 date=1291306051]
2. That 'salvation' ['knowing' who we really are and where we are from] is attainable on earth as a flash of 'gnosis' which can be found when one looks within themselves, not without. The idea is that one does not have to die in order to attain gnosis [salvation] as in classical Christian tradition. One can attain in now, on earth.[/quote]

Why is the idea of salvation so important? From what, exactly, are people being saved? Is it just ignorance of being more than lumps of flesh or what?

[thalassa]

Re: Questions about Gnosticism

[quote author=perzephone link=topic=1036.msg19952#msg19952 date=1291536861]
Why is the idea of salvation so important? From what, exactly, are people being saved? Is it just ignorance of being more than lumps of flesh or what?
[/quote]

following along these lines...

What is salvation in the gnostic tradition anyhoo? Is it more like the concept of enlightenment vs the idea of eternal redemption?

[cesara]

Re: Questions about Gnosticism

Gwen and MaskedOne, I am still working on both of your earlier questions, Gwen re: connections between the occult/neopaganism and gnosticism/hermeticism and MaskedOne re: connections between Gnostic Christianity and the Manichaeans.....I haven't forgotten!

Perz and Thal, great questions on the concept of salvation! Love it! I have some super interesting stuff to post on this topic.

I'm hoping to have these q's done today!!!

[Agamemnon]

Re: Questions about Gnosticism

[quote author=perzephone link=topic=1036.msg19952#msg19952 date=1291536861]
Why is the idea of salvation so important? From what, exactly, are people being saved? Is it just ignorance of being more than lumps of flesh or what?
[/quote]

I second this. What is Salvation saving from, and why is it needed. This has stumped me since I was a child.

[cesara]

Re: Questions about Gnosticism

Okay, first off, I apologize for my tardiness in answering this week. Aside from the hecticness of the season, it is important to me to be able to answer questions as best as I possibly can and give each question the time it deserves. Also, I am finding that your questions are prompting me to assess a lot of the information and organize it in such a way as to give a clear and informed answer. I have been working on the questions of gnosticism/neopaganism and salvation off and on all week.
That said, here we go....

[quote author=Gwen link=topic=1036.msg19161#msg19161 date=1291263194]
Another question for the que! for the past year or so I've begun to tease out the Hermetic roots of Neopaganism, starting with the history of the Golden Dawn and similar groups, and going into Kabbalah, alchemy, and a bit of Neo-Platonism and Gnosticism. I'm just beginning to scratch the surface of those last two. How would you describe their relationship to one another, and to the formation of Neopaganism (especially early groups like Gardner)? Do you have any recommendations of sources to look into?
[/quote]

As stated above, neoplatonism is the backbone of gnosticism. Gnosticism depends a great deal on neoplatonic ideas.


Links between Gnosticism and Neopaganism

There are definitely some clear connections between gnosticism, the Corpus Hermeticum, the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, the Order Templis Orientis , Crowley, Gardner, and ultimately Wicca.


Hermeticism
As stated above, Hermeticism is rooted in a gnostic text called the Corpus Hermeticum. Hermeticists identify with the neopagan community.

The entire Corpus Hermeticum: http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/herm/index.htm

The Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, of course, has clear Hermetic influences along with Qabalah, and Christian mysticism. From the Golden Dawn link, Aleister Crowley is known to have been a member.


Aleister Crowley, the O.T.O. and Gnosticism
With clear Golden Dawn influence, the O.T.O. (Order Templis Orientis) is an organization in which the participants practice Thelema which was derived by Crowley. The two core gnostic beliefs above are clearly inherent within Crowley's Thelemic texts, Liber AL el Legis (Book of the Law) and Liber 15 (Gnostic MassEvery man and every woman is a star." - Liber AL , and the concept of gnosisGreat WorkMystic Marriage, as well as following lines of Crowley's Liber AL:

It is not unreasonable to suggest that the inspiration for these ideas was St. Augustine of Hippo, who was influenced by Manichaeism and neoplatonism, who said:

Love, and do what thou wilt

These ideas are suggested to be the precursers of the Wiccan Rede.


Gerald Gardner
Gardner met Crowley in 1946, one year before Crowley's death. They were known to have enjoyed each other's company. Gardner was a member of Crowley's O.T.O. and was given his O.T.O. degree by Crowley. For more information on Crowley's influence on both Gardner, and ultimately on traditional Gardnerian Wicca, see: http://www.geraldgardner.com/History...ca_Revised.pdf.

The Book of
the Lawibid

An excellent article and absolutely worth the read, but if you are interested in just the Crowley/Garner/Wicca connection, see page 7.

This really could be a topic all on it's own, so I will leave it at that, for now, and if you have any other questions, just let me know and we can get more specific if you like.

[Yazichestvo]

Re: Questions about Gnosticism

I'm afraid this may seem off topic, but are you familiar with mystery religions? Particulary the Orphic cult, or Orphism. The latter were around by the 5th century B.C., and already they had a doctrine of a divine soul imprisoned within a base, material body. They're a favorite subject of mine, and I think there are definite ties to Greek philosopy that sustain themselves all the way up to Gnosticism, if not Christianity in general. I was thinking of starting a topic on them, but I'm wondering what you may think of this.

[cesara]

Re: Questions about Gnosticism

[quote author=Yazichestvo link=topic=1036.msg21806#msg21806 date=1292130641]
I'm afraid this may seem off topic, but are you familiar with mystery religions? Particulary the Orphic cult, or Orphism. The latter were around by the 5th century B.C., and already they had a doctrine of a divine soul imprisoned within a base, material body. They're a favorite subject of mine, and I think there are definite ties to Greek philosopy that sustain themselves all the way up to Gnosticism, if not Christianity in general. I was thinking of starting a topic on them, but I'm wondering what you may think of this.
[/quote]

Orphism is a great topic...and yes, I would consider the ideology very close to gnosticism with most certain Hellenic influence. I actually have a post planned about Orphism, but if you would rather start a different thread, that's fine with me.

[His Three Calls to Cormac]

Re: Questions about Gnosticism

Sorry if this is a dumb question but, do some Gnostic groups hold the belief in the Firstborn (might be spelt differently)? The being that was created before Adam and Eve in God's true image that was neither good nor bad, light nor dark or man nor woman.

[cesara]

Re: Questions about Gnosticism

Sorry, Io know there are some questions here I haven't answered yet....but this last week (even longer!) I have been sooooooo sick....yesterday was the first day I actually got dressed. My brain has been preoccupied to say the least.....after xmas I will get to these for SURE. Thanks for being patient with me!

[tigersgrowl1093]

Re: Questions about Gnosticism

Not to hijack the thread, but I've been reading a book called "The Jesus Mysteries: Was the "Original Jesus" a Pagan God?" by Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy.

Good book if you're interested in Gnosticism.