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    Advanced Occultism, Elitism, and More

    I was going to post this somewhere else, but honestly it became more of a rant while I was writing it.

    So I'm at the point in my ever continuing spiritual development where I've read up on multiple spiritual traditions extensively, incorporated, refined, honed, and re-evaluated every bit of wisdom I've come across. It is a continuing process, but I've read texts ranging from more accessible stuff like Christopher Penczack's works to more jarringly radical material from the likes of Peter J. Carroll. I've begun searching for texts that offer new perspectives. Ones focused on less introductory material and more on the intellectual meat of the subject. However it seems that whenever I go looking for "advanced" texts, they seem hidden among a sea of books aimed at beginners and initiates more accessible and less offensive to the sensibilities of the average western Christian. Now when I say that, I am not saying we should be filling our manuscripts with vitriol and hatred of Christianity or that we should go out of our way to offend. What I am saying is that many of these texts seem to be aimed at people in the shallow end of the pool who may be beginning their journey and are not necessarily ready for the heavier stuff yet. Now there is nothing wrong with this in and of itself. Throw someone into the heart of a forest they've never been to before and they will become lost. However, they will reach the inner reaches of that forest if they wish to explore it and they will need certain pieces of knowledge and tools that a beginners kit or text will not provide. This is part of the forest is terrifying to those not used to it's pathways. This is the sort of thing I'm talking about. What complicates this is that I have no coven, sect, order, or any other such congregation, so in many cases I rely on the indirect tutelage of others for new perspectives. I seek something deeper and more focused on philosophy rather than a guide to practice (though relating them back to practice and ritual would be good). However, I have come across a number of other problems in the process.

    The first of these is that a number of those touting themselves as teachers or experts on advanced Pagan/Occult theology and practice seem to be in a bit of a rush to act like the stage personas of so many Norwegian Black Metal musicians (That's not a diss to the black metal. I happen to like Dimmu Borgir, Emperor, Immortal, and other bands associated with it.). They seem be so utterly focused on attacking Abrahamic religions and making references to pacts with Devils or Satan that one wonders if they aren't just the vaguely Gothic reverse of the ever despised "fluffy bunnies" playing at being edgy by throwing in as many references to Crowley (for the record, The Book of The Law is near and dear to my heart), Goetia, Lovecraft, and fictional satanic cults as possible then making haphazard connections to paganism and various occult traditions. An extension of this are some of the people enamored with a brand of chaos magic that eschews certain simple facts about the world we live in and ethics, taking the old adage "Nothing is true, everything is permitted" a bit too seriously for my liking. Then you have the people who seem to think that nearly upper echelon practices have to involve sex. Yes sexuality is nothing to be ashamed of and we often neglect the positive power of sexuality, but it's not the end all be all of practice or philosophy for that matter.

    Then there are the people who possess a wealth of knowledge of folk magic and beliefs, historical information, and little known techniques from the western traditions, but seem to have a certain dudebro attitude where they're mad that progressive politics have become such a major part of these spiritual communities, some times heading to territory that reads as if they really want to say "Get ur tumblr SJW PC stuff out of my mgcks noob." and simply seem to think that whatever wisdom they do possess gives them an exception for whenever they want to do or say something problematic. On a similar note, you have the elitists whose dedication to a single tradition may be admirable, but seem to be too invested telling other only to stick to the historical or that there is only one way to honor the Divine, especially in their own tradition. They believe they have a monopoly on truth. This is also something I've seen people who claim to be "traditional" witches delve into. A third extension of this are some forms of so called "neo-shamans" and animists who seem to think that all these other people with their ceremonial magic, grimoires, covens, and other such things of full of BS and in a puzzling turn of events combine the previously mentioned ones into a single form with a vaguely "shamanistic" twist. Ceremonialists also do something like this on occasion.

    Now none of this is me saying that my way is the best or anyone else's. It's just me voicing my frustration that comes with the search for more "advanced" writings without people seemingly falling into any of those categories. Yes, I think people do need to explore the more grim, "dark", shadowy aspects of Pagan and occult spirituality. Yes, we could stand to learn from traditional forms and historical sources and knowledge. Yes, sexuality is often neglected. Individualism and personalized practice most certainly should be valued and explored. Dogma some times needs to be criticized. However, I am so sick of people taking it in these particularly baffling directions. I just want to read about these different, possibly quite innovative perspectives without having to deal with blatant egotism, elitism, problematic vitriol, and other similar issues.

    P.S.
    If anyone does have any recommendations, please send them my way.

    #2
    Re: Advanced Occultism, Elitism, and More

    As a pagan author myself, I sympathise. The thing is that really we each walk an individual path. And the idea of writing books for advanced students does depend so much on where that student wants to go. So my own recommendation has always been never to concentrate on the Magic 101 books, but to begin to explore outwards... to really research into aspects that interest us. For me, that path lead via plants, folklore, anglo-saxon history, early medieval penitentials (wonderful source for reconstructionists!) and a succession of rather dark studies when I wrote my book on Psychic self defence.

    People who stand between others and this type of knowledge are often problematical. It begins to drop into the 'I know something you don't know' nonsense if we're not careful. Often the knowledge we seek isn't easy to find. For example, when I wrote Sacred Shadows (which was about magical and religious beliefs in the Ice Age) I had to translate a number of academic journals from French (a language I hadn't really studied since my schooldays.) But it was worth it - an incredible voyage into work that had been ignored for far too long in my opinion.

    So do please keep seeking. But don't expect much guidance in terms of an advanced guide to anything. Your true guides are often the most unlikely people. And good luck!
    www.thewolfenhowlepress.com


    Phantom Turnips never die.... they just get stewed occasionally....

    Comment


      #3
      Re: Advanced Occultism, Elitism, and More

      Originally posted by Tylluan Penry View Post
      As a pagan author myself, I sympathise. The thing is that really we each walk an individual path. And the idea of writing books for advanced students does depend so much on where that student wants to go. So my own recommendation has always been never to concentrate on the Magic 101 books, but to begin to explore outwards... to really research into aspects that interest us. For me, that path lead via plants, folklore, anglo-saxon history, early medieval penitentials (wonderful source for reconstructionists!) and a succession of rather dark studies when I wrote my book on Psychic self defence.

      People who stand between others and this type of knowledge are often problematical. It begins to drop into the 'I know something you don't know' nonsense if we're not careful. Often the knowledge we seek isn't easy to find. For example, when I wrote Sacred Shadows (which was about magical and religious beliefs in the Ice Age) I had to translate a number of academic journals from French (a language I hadn't really studied since my schooldays.) But it was worth it - an incredible voyage into work that had been ignored for far too long in my opinion.

      So do please keep seeking. But don't expect much guidance in terms of an advanced guide to anything. Your true guides are often the most unlikely people. And good luck!
      The problem with finding people is that there aren't very many of them around here with regards to occultists and pagans. I could take classes online, but I do not trust them. I've also got enough to worry about with college courses in the mundane as it is. The other simple fact is that I enjoy hearing about other traditions for they aid in illuminating the wisdom at the heart of all paths. My personal goal is to find the truth at the heart of all truths or at least come close to it. I am forging my own tradition of which I am the only member at this moment. If at some point I should write out my own teachings, maybe that will change, but finding other people, let alone unexpected ones is easier said than done when one is a solitary.

      Comment


        #4
        Re: Advanced Occultism, Elitism, and More

        Originally posted by Riothamus12 View Post
        The problem with finding people is that there aren't very many of them around here with regards to occultists and pagans. I could take classes online, but I do not trust them. I've also got enough to worry about with college courses in the mundane as it is. The other simple fact is that I enjoy hearing about other traditions for they aid in illuminating the wisdom at the heart of all paths. My personal goal is to find the truth at the heart of all truths or at least come close to it. I am forging my own tradition of which I am the only member at this moment. If at some point I should write out my own teachings, maybe that will change, but finding other people, let alone unexpected ones is easier said than done when one is a solitary.
        Your personal goal is very worthy, but ultimately will corrode you since first you have to understand the nature of truth. And there is nothing wrong with forging one's own tradition - indeed, that's what I did (and I called it Seeking the Green.) And I am a solitary too, so please believe me that I do understand.

        Read wisely, widely, and well. The mundane often has unexpected truths to offer. And people don't have to be pagans or occultists in order to offer some startling truths.

        Your 'problem' and that really isn't the right word, it's much too harsh... is that you are looking for something structured and organised. In fact, what I think you are really seeking is wisdom. And if that is true, then first seek compassion.

        Believe me, such a path leads to some astonishing places!
        www.thewolfenhowlepress.com


        Phantom Turnips never die.... they just get stewed occasionally....

        Comment


          #5
          Re: Advanced Occultism, Elitism, and More

          Originally posted by Riothamus12 View Post
          ...but finding other people, let alone unexpected ones is easier said than done when one is a solitary.
          You can't "find" unexpected teachers.

          You most likely walk past many of them every time you walk down the street, but, if you are like most people, you have never seen them because you are always looking for and expecting something else.

          You have advanced teachers, you just haven't advanced enough to know it yet.

          They are unlikely to announce their presence, they are unlikely to display any distinguishing features, and they are more likely to piss you off than anything else...

          Best wishes!
          Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

          Comment


            #6
            Re: Advanced Occultism, Elitism, and More

            Originally posted by B. de Corbin View Post
            You can't "find" unexpected teachers.

            You most likely walk past many of them every time you walk down the street, but, if you are like most people, you have never seen them because you are always looking for and expecting something else.

            You have advanced teachers, you just haven't advanced enough to know it yet.

            They are unlikely to announce their presence, they are unlikely to display any distinguishing features, and they are more likely to piss you off than anything else...

            Best wishes!
            Have to agree 100 percent. That and point out not all teachers will be human either. That presumption is what I see kill many a practitioners hopes and dreams until they realize that there are clues that are revealed but you have to learn to read the clues.
            I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!

            Comment


              #7
              Re: Advanced Occultism, Elitism, and More

              P.S. Riothamus12, you asked for recommendations on advanced teachings. I want to give you something concrete to explore, so try The Journey to the East, by Herman Hesse.
              Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

              Comment


                #8
                Re: Advanced Occultism, Elitism, and More

                Originally posted by B. de Corbin View Post
                You can't "find" unexpected teachers.

                You most likely walk past many of them every time you walk down the street, but, if you are like most people, you have never seen them because you are always looking for and expecting something else.

                You have advanced teachers, you just haven't advanced enough to know it yet.

                They are unlikely to announce their presence, they are unlikely to display any distinguishing features, and they are more likely to piss you off than anything else...

                Best wishes!
                Unexpected teachers can find you though. I've been benefiting from one for a couple months now. A friend at work realized I had a specific kind of training offerred to help advance it. That falls under either sheer dumb luck on my part or meddling by things outside my control (take your pick) because I wasn't looking for a teacher and wasn't aware of just how much he knew.
                life itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.

                Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

                "But those men who know anything at all about the Light also know that there is a fierceness to its power, like the bare sword of the law, or the white burning of the sun." Suddenly his voice sounded to Will very strong, and very Welsh. "At the very heart, that is. Other things, like humanity, and mercy, and charity, that most good men hold more precious than all else, they do not come first for the Light. Oh, sometimes they are there; often, indeed. But in the very long run the concern of you people is with the absolute good, ahead of all else..."

                John Rowlands, The Grey King by Susan Cooper

                "You come from the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve", said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth; be content."

                Aslan, Prince Caspian by CS Lewis


                Comment


                  #9
                  Re: Advanced Occultism, Elitism, and More

                  Originally posted by Tylluan Penry View Post
                  Your personal goal is very worthy, but ultimately will corrode you since first you have to understand the nature of truth. And there is nothing wrong with forging one's own tradition - indeed, that's what I did (and I called it Seeking the Green.) And I am a solitary too, so please believe me that I do understand.

                  Read wisely, widely, and well. The mundane often has unexpected truths to offer. And people don't have to be pagans or occultists in order to offer some startling truths.

                  Your 'problem' and that really isn't the right word, it's much too harsh... is that you are looking for something structured and organised. In fact, what I think you are really seeking is wisdom. And if that is true, then first seek compassion.

                  Believe me, such a path leads to some astonishing places!
                  I have always sought wisdom. Attainment of wisdom is part of the heart of all paths. The search for the truth never corrodes for it is synonymous with the pursuit of wisdom.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Re: Advanced Occultism, Elitism, and More

                    Originally posted by Riothamus12 View Post
                    I have always sought wisdom. Attainment of wisdom is part of the heart of all paths. The search for the truth never corrodes for it is synonymous with the pursuit of wisdom.
                    No... I would respectfully suggest that truth is not always the same thing at all. Truth is often portrayed in black and white, but that's not necessarily what wisdom really is. That's part of the learning process.

                    A little gem someone once told me:
                    There is knowledge and there is wisdom.
                    And the difference between them is compassion.
                    www.thewolfenhowlepress.com


                    Phantom Turnips never die.... they just get stewed occasionally....

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Re: Advanced Occultism, Elitism, and More

                      Originally posted by Tylluan Penry View Post
                      No... I would respectfully suggest that truth is not always the same thing at all. Truth is often portrayed in black and white, but that's not necessarily what wisdom really is. That's part of the learning process.

                      A little gem someone once told me:
                      There is knowledge and there is wisdom.
                      And the difference between them is compassion.
                      But wisdom cannot be wisdom if it is not in some way truth.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Re: Advanced Occultism, Elitism, and More

                        Originally posted by Riothamus12 View Post
                        But wisdom cannot be wisdom if it is not in some way truth.
                        Sure it can.

                        Humans are wholly incapable of perceiving "truth", if by "truth" you mean something even close to "the literal reality of what is actually going on around us and the nature of everything in the universe". Truth is ALWAYS colored by the individual's difference in ability to sense what is around them, to interpret the information that they sense, to understand and reference what they interpret, and to put what they understand into a larger context. It is ALWAYS influenced by factors as varied as genetics, education, income, experience, preexisting beliefs and values, subconscious bias, diet, how much you meditate, whether or not you are in pain, how much you slept last night, ect.

                        The best we can ever hope for is a truth for us that may or may not match the consensus truth of our greater societies.



                        There are 7.125 billion truths on this planet. More if you include other organisms capable of complex thought. Some are closer to one another than others, but they are all truth. But there is only one The Truth, and that Truth is that there are no other Truths.
                        Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
                        sigpic

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                          #13
                          Re: Advanced Occultism, Elitism, and More

                          Wisdom often transcends truth.
                          Truth sometimes has not a shred of wisdom in it.
                          www.thewolfenhowlepress.com


                          Phantom Turnips never die.... they just get stewed occasionally....

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Re: Advanced Occultism, Elitism, and More

                            Truth is I am kinda going into brain burn at the moment...Truth is we may never ever find truth because we are looking in all the wrong places..
                            MAGIC is MAGIC,black OR white or even blood RED

                            all i ever wanted was a normal life and love.
                            NO TERF EVER WE belong Too.
                            don't stop the tears.let them flood your soul.




                            sigpic

                            my new page here,let me know what you think.


                            nothing but the shadow of what was

                            witchvox
                            http://www.witchvox.com/vu/vxposts.html

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Re: Advanced Occultism, Elitism, and More

                              You know how you look at a bunch of people following a 'faith' you know is bunk ala Jim Jones? You can see the truth of people inside all that falseness.

                              (do I sound smarty pants now?)
                              Satan is my spirit animal

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