Don't Stay in School?

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Don't Stay in School?

That is true, monsno_leedra. Teaching to the test sucks, and the testing eats up a heck of a lot of class time, taking time away from other things.

But critical thinking, textual analysis, etc. are still what we do.

We just have less time to do it.

I will add that the problem is not with the idea of a "common core." The problem is in the way the common core is being implemented - along with a whole lot of other crap surviving from Reagan's "no child left behind" farce (again, the idea of educating ALL kids isn't the problem - it has been poorly implemented by people who have no teaching knowledge or experience. It's like a golf pro telling a surgeon how to operate).

[monsno_leedra]

Re: Don't Stay in School?

I know when I worked for the local school system I heard more and more about running things like a business and child care center all at once vice actually teaching. Was sad I was trying to get my state certifications at that time and was advised to go to the college level vice primary or secondary education. If not college level then to go for a technical type school where people actually wanted to learn when they got older.

That didn't even touch upon how many classes I would have to take to get my certification and keep it once I got it. Was told all the NTE's I had taken were no longer valid and had to retake things under a new system. For the life of me now I can't think of what they were called only that they were subject specific and had replaced the NTE's for the most part. It's like I went to work as a router but once the administrators discovered I had a BA and had certification via Mid-Atlantic schools association as well as 9 years experience in technical school systems via the military it was "Oh you need to get your Virginia certification!" That's how I found out just how screwy the state specific requirements are and how many "Additional" classes were required for each teacher to keep their certifications and remain up to date on their subject material.

[thalassa]

Re: Don't Stay in School?

I will add that the problem is not with the idea of a "common core." The problem is in the way the common core is being implemented - along with a whole lot of other crap surviving from Reagan's "no child left behind" farce (again, the idea of educating ALL kids isn't the problem - it has been poorly implemented by people who have no teaching knowledge or experience. It's like a golf pro telling a surgeon how to operate).

This^

I didn't become a teacher because of NCLB...standardized testing (in the way that it was adopted as a result of NCLB) is a pariah on the actual education of children. I was a pre-NCLB student, and I took standardized tests, but the way that they were used was much different.

IMO, CC is a great idea--there should be some stanardization of when kids learn things so that when a kid moves from Florida to New York, they are learning the same approximate things in the same grade. That was one of the original purposes of the CC--to standardize what kids learn so that they could actually go to college and have the educational foundation needed for college classes, no matter where their school was. Put it this way, before the Common Core, a high school diploma from Tennessee and a high school diploma from Massachusetts were not equal--Mass had a far more rigorous set of state standards. The Common Core is actually based on the standards of the states with higher standards and better performance in internationally compared assessments. And the standards themselves were written by educators, revised by educators, criticized and rerevised by educators...

In VA, they kept the SOL's and didn't adopt the Common Core, but the SOLs are basically a defacto CC...in most cases, the SOLs (Standards of Learning) were effectively the same as the Common Core standards, though a few have been switched around or improved to keep in line with the Common Core standards--for VA, there's really not much of a change. The state has been doing this since the 90's--the SOLs are actually based on the failed 1995 Common Core of Learning plan. And the Common Core of Learning (and the Common Core) is based on the ideas of E. D. Hirsch. (more sauce) IMO, the problem with the SOLs is the testing, not the standards themselves.

I find it incredibly ironic that conservatives now seemingly oppose the Common Core...because when E. D. Hirsch first published Cultural Literacy, the idea of a common core of knowledge was their bread and butter...and yeah, liberals opposed the idea on the basis of being elietist. (E. D. Hirsch also is responsible for the books "What your ___ grader should know").

And the problem (as mentioned by Corbin) is the implementation has been handled by politicians...most of whom know as much about education as my cats.

[Hawkfeathers]

Re: Don't Stay in School?

There's a lot of local control here. They still do common core, but they can pray. They're almost all Baptists, with a smattering of other kinds of Protestant, and they have religion-based clubs in school, and can base their papers and project on faith based stuff. Teachers carry guns. It's like a factory churning out little Ozarkian doomsday preppers. The ones I've seen go on to do big things have intelligent parents. One of my friends sons is in Med. school, and another is a grad student with a fellowship from NASA. I always say there's hope here because we have a rocket scientist!

[Medusa]

Re: Don't Stay in School?

While our register systems were down over the weekend, I was one of a handful of people who could manually write out the tickets for sale. Why? Kids didn't know how to calculate basic percentages off (it was the 20% coupon. You can do that in your damn head if pressed). How to figure out sales tax and add it in. And...sadly..what the hell a calculator was.

Yeah. Kids need to learn quite a lot of things they aren't getting in school.

[monsno_leedra]

Re: Don't Stay in School?

Basic math skills are being shot down it seems because everyone is claiming they will always have a phone, computer, etc to calculate stuff for them. It's like you see more and more kids who can't tell time from the face of an older style clock because they are not digital.

It's a blast though going to PTA meetings or school board meetings and listening at times to what parents are complaining about. It is sad though listening to the parents complain about the school and teachers not doing more while the parents do less and less.

[Hawkfeathers]

Re: Don't Stay in School?

They can't read a real clock? Maybe this is why they need to be taught about what numbers represent (which is what common core's supposed to do). I remember teaching someone's little girl what a quarter was worth by comparing it to 15 minutes on a clock, because she knew how to tell blocks of time on a real clock. There's a lot of value to that knowledge.

We have a store here called Cash Savers. Everything is 10% off the sticker price. People can't figure it out. I never thought I was good with fractions or percents, but I'm 75% genius next to some. (Hey, that's 3/4! Look, I did learn something all those years ago! LOL)

[thalassa]

Re: Don't Stay in School?

While our register systems were down over the weekend, I was one of a handful of people who could manually write out the tickets for sale. Why? Kids didn't know how to calculate basic percentages off (it was the 20% coupon. You can do that in your damn head if pressed). How to figure out sales tax and add it in. And...sadly..what the hell a calculator was.

Yeah. Kids need to learn quite a lot of things they aren't getting in school.

I am 99.99999999999999999% sure all of them were TAUGHT this in school.

I was taught this in school, the kids I tutored were taught this, my brothers have been taught this in school (they are in high school now). Heck, they still use the same calculator to teach these things that I used when I was in school (the only defense I have for TI is that their calculators last forever, and its their company policy that their products should have a lifetime of at least 20 years).

The problem isn't the teaching of these things, its the RETENTION of these things. It doesn't matter if you were taught it if you never use it. I use statistics every day in my job--I use a program that calculates them for me. Sure, I can do the mean, medium, and mode...but I certainly don't rememebr how to calculate the 95th %ile from a Z table...

[anunitu]

Re: Don't Stay in School?

My first experience with the analog clock thing was when I asked my son what time it was(we had a clock with hands) and he told me he could NOT read it,that was about 15 years back BTW

All they taught him was digital watch or clock.

- - - Updated - - -

There was a book I got hold of when I was younger something like this book

Might have been another book,but pretty much the same.



- - - Updated - - -

Using this book and the methods you can do a LOT of calculations in your head.

[thalassa]

Re: Don't Stay in School?

My kids learned to tell time with an analog clock. And it still takes me thrice as long to tell time with an analog clock than a digital one.

[faye_cat]

Re: Don't Stay in School?

About the clock: From Kindergarten til Second grade, I am still finding clock worksheets teaching them how to read time properly. My son is very good at it, my niece, not so much. They go to different county schools. Again, it is a hit or miss depending on their teacher and curriculum.

Thalassa hit the nail on the head: What kids learn vs what they retain are vastly different.

[anunitu]

Re: Don't Stay in School?

Remember I also could tell time on a ship by the bells...that is a whole other thing..

- - - Updated - - -

Also mention the boats pipes...

[Hawkfeathers]

Re: Don't Stay in School?

Anything with steps/calculations, I have to write down and follow many times until it's memorized. Computer directions - click this, pull down that, all make sense but if I leave the page it is gone - poof! But I can quote stuff from the 60's and 70's, and can go to a store and match a color of something at home without bringing a sample along, and remember events from long ago like playing a movie in my mind.
I got my first calculator when I started college. Up until then it was all paper & pencil.

I suppose Roman numerals are completely off the table these days?

[faye_cat]

Re: Don't Stay in School?

No, at least the school where my son is at still teaches Roman Numerals...I'm not sure what grade he learned it in (1st or 2nd) but he can read them.

[Medusa]

Re: Don't Stay in School?

I'm pretty sure they are trying to do away with cursive as well. So when the apocalypse comes, these kids will just twiddle their thumbs because they can't write to warn the neighbors this house has zombies. And the neighbors won't be able to read the sign warning them of house zombies. They will be as hapless and useless as the zombies. We will have the living dead and the dumb alive.