Alternatives to Capitalism

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Alternatives to Capitalism

For Orwell, I think he was more concerned that ANYTHING could be turned into totalitarian oppression, given the right conditions, or, maybe, it was his interest in the abuse of language, where a word that sounds good replaces the real word for a thing.

But those who oppose anything that has even a whiff of "socialism" attached to it do often equate it with some totalitarian horror. I did a quick look at internet memes. Take a look at these:







the idea behind each is obvious

[DanieMarie]

Re: Alternatives to Capitalism

It doesn't make those people right, though. Also, I really wonder if people who vilify Marx have actually read Marx. He wasn't right about everything and a lot of his solutions don't work, but my goodness, was he good at pinpointing the problems of his day. He might not have had the right solutions, but at the end of the day, all he wanted to do was end the horrible abuses that the Industrial Revolution unleashed upon the working population.

[ThePaganMafia]

Re: Alternatives to Capitalism

Bernie Sanders is a Socialist. Hitler's party had the word Socialist.

BERNIE SANDERS IS JEWISH HITLER.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Alternatives to Capitalism

No, they aren't right. People with extreme views are seldom (if ever) right.

We know that unrestrained capitalism is horrible. In the US, we experimented with it, and the abuses were so bad that this country came close to being destroyed. Companies became de facto governments, issuing their own currency as wages that could only be spent in the "company store," they were able to call on the military to force workers, at gunpoint, back to work, and force people to work dangerous, life threatening jobs for sub-living wages. Small scale wars were fought against employees who asked for things we take for grated here today.

We also know that communism doesn't work. Forget the USSR, of the China of Chairman Mao. No Israeli kibbutz survived into the second generation, and they were the most rational and carefully thought out attempt at communism ever attempted, with willing participants who were committed to making them work.

But somewhere in between there is a compromise - everybody will not get everything they want, but the worst abuses on each end of the spectrum are avoided, and everybody enjoys some benefit.

My opinion is this: Once a society/country reaches a certain level of prosperity and stability it has the luxury of having a heart. The next direction to move is to figure out how to aid the weaker members of that society, and bring them up to a level where they are not condemned to live in perpetual hell. by doing this, some will benefit immediately, while the rest will eventually benefit by living in a stronger country, with even greater stability and prosperity.

[THANK...]

Re: Alternatives to Capitalism

I don't understand all the jargon because I never really cared, but if we spent our money on research into holistic medicine, sustainable technology, and made it just a bit easier to get a job and raised wages but not prices we could have a more sustainable world. There are so many people so well off monetarily it is amazing to see where their money goes - yachts, jets, thousands of dollars for balls and gala's, hundreds of dollars for a pair of pants, shoes, or a shirt - $200 dollars for a shirt! Seriously? I refuse to pay more than $25 a shirt or pair or pants, so I rarely go clothing shopping.

If we teach survivalist skills in schools, such as how to identify and utilize local plants and trees for food and medicine, how to plant and grow herbs, trees, and habitats, and proper social etiquette we could raise a generation of children into caring adults that use their education and money for the good of humanity instead of for fashion and war. Less money on war and entertainers. I love my moves and music, but do they really need millions of dollars to act like your favorite childhood superhero or sing a lovely song? Entertainers get paid more money than doctors, holistic care practitioners and school teachers. It's where our money goes that is a big problem.

[DanieMarie]

Re: Alternatives to Capitalism

Actually, $25 is far too little for a shirt and definitely too little for a pair of pants, given the resources and labour that go into it. It can maybe cover a T-Shirt, but that's about it. If you want a shirt that is made by people paid a fair wage and that used sustainable practices to grow (or produce), weave, and dye the fabric, it's going to cost more than $25. That's sort of the problem with low wages, in a way. Wages can't really go up without some prices in some sectors going up a little bit, because those low prices totally rely on people being paid like slaves or really unsustainable practices. This is definitely true for clothing in most parts of the world, and it's true for food in places like Germany.

And only famous entertainers get paid that much money, and they make up a very, very small minority of entertainers overall. Singers, musicians, actors, writers, and artists who are -not- famous are lucky if they can even pay their rent, let alone buy a mansion.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Alternatives to Capitalism

...and proper social etiquette we could raise a generation of children into caring adults that use their education and money for the good of humanity instead of for fashion and war...

This sounds nice.

But the other way of phrasing it is this: If we can just get the government to use the control it can exercise in early education to eliminate independent thought via intense indoctrination and create a nation of human drones who lack mental autonomy, things would be just peachy.

[THANK...]

Re: Alternatives to Capitalism

Actually, $25 is far too little for a shirt and definitely too little for a pair of pants, given the resources and labour that go into it. It can maybe cover a T-Shirt, but that's about it. If you want a shirt that is made by people paid a fair wage and that used sustainable practices to grow (or produce), weave, and dye the fabric, it's going to cost more than $25. That's sort of the problem with low wages, in a way. Wages can't really go up without some prices in some sectors going up a little bit, because those low prices totally rely on people being paid like slaves or really unsustainable practices. This is definitely true for clothing in most parts of the world, and it's true for food in places like Germany.

And only famous entertainers get paid that much money, and they make up a very, very small minority of entertainers overall. Singers, musicians, actors, writers, and artists who are -not- famous are lucky if they can even pay their rent, let alone buy a mansion.

Yeah, I didn't think about the larger picture of clothing when it comes to my consumerism. Good point.

On the topic of entertainers, I understand there are plenty of talented and well known artists and entertainers who do not make very much money and struggle for a comfortable living, but the amount that goes to the small percent of 'stars' and famous entertainers is a bit much considering that excess of money can go into a wider range of humanities that will actually help the planet as a whole organism.

This sounds nice.

But the other way of phrasing it is this: If we can just get the government to use the control it can exercise in early education to eliminate independent thought via intense indoctrination and create a nation of human drones who lack mental autonomy, things would be just peachy.

I can understand how teaching certain types of etiquette creates drones, but it doesn't have to be that way. For example, etiquette doesn't have to be taught in a high society Victorian era style, but on a human to human basis. Maybe 'how to respond with empathy' is a better way to phrase what I mean; treating others with kindness and respect but not being afraid to speak ones mind from the heart if there is a disagreement. Etiquette doesn't have to take away ones autonomy; as I see it etiquette is learning how to adapt to keep civil company.

[DanieMarie]

Re: Alternatives to Capitalism

Yeah, I didn't think about the larger picture of clothing when it comes to my consumerism. Good point.

A lot of people don't. The relationship between fair pay, fair trade, sustainable practices, and price gets tricky when you don't have much money. If it means anything, I don't have much money to spend on stuff like clothes either. I buy a lot of stuff second hand (you can find really, really nice things in thrift stores) and make clothes (not an option for everyone...I understand that!)

On the topic of entertainers, I understand there are plenty of talented and well known artists and entertainers who do not make very much money and struggle for a comfortable living, but the amount that goes to the small percent of 'stars' and famous entertainers is a bit much considering that excess of money can go into a wider range of humanities that will actually help the planet as a whole organism.

[/COLOR]

I think that it's less an issue of money going to entertainers and more an issue with the premium we put on fame. It's not just famous entertainers who get a seriously disproportionate share of income in their fields. Famous athletes make huge piles of money, while the majority of athletes barely scrape by. American CEOs make multiple times what even professional and educated workers in their companies earn. A lot of people like to justify that talent comes with a price, but it's not really talent that earns that kind of premium. It's name recognition.

[Thrudr]

Re: Alternatives to Capitalism

Part of my distress with climate change is due in part to our economic climate. I don't like that many people are pushed to their financial limit to buy basics and miss out on quality of life. I don't like that we are taking from our earth faster than she can regenerate and that we are wasting so much.

So if the goals are economic and environmental sustainability, what economic systems could support this? Is there a way capitalism can support those goals?

Just leave it to the kids:

https://www.ted.com/talks/john_hunter_on_the_world_peace_game

[thalassa]

Re: Alternatives to Capitalism

Actually, $25 is far too little for a shirt and definitely too little for a pair of pants, given the resources and labour that go into it. It can maybe cover a T-Shirt, but that's about it. If you want a shirt that is made by people paid a fair wage and that used sustainable practices to grow (or produce), weave, and dye the fabric, it's going to cost more than $25. That's sort of the problem with low wages, in a way. Wages can't really go up without some prices in some sectors going up a little bit, because those low prices totally rely on people being paid like slaves or really unsustainable practices. This is definitely true for clothing in most parts of the world, and it's true for food in places like Germany.

I like to explain it to people in song...

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Alternatives to Capitalism

I can understand how teaching certain types of etiquette creates drones, but it doesn't have to be that way. For example, etiquette doesn't have to be taught in a high society Victorian era style, but on a human to human basis. Maybe 'how to respond with empathy' is a better way to phrase what I mean; treating others with kindness and respect but not being afraid to speak ones mind from the heart if there is a disagreement. Etiquette doesn't have to take away ones autonomy; as I see it etiquette is learning how to adapt to keep civil company.

The thing is, this is currently being done, has been done since the invention of the classroom, and will continue to be done as long as young people meet in a structured educational setting. It is part of "classroom management."

However, if you want it to take better than it is, you have to hammer, and hammer, and hammer, and leave no options for other choices while in school, and also hammer away at their home life, telling them (frequently) that their parents are soooooo very, very, very wrong.

[TxanGoddess]

Re: Alternatives to Capitalism

As others have stated, socialism/communism got a bad rep from the USSR. The reason for this is that while the USSR wasn't really purely anything economically, except corrupt, much like the PRC currently; using the term "Communism" gave them a certain amount of moral authority from associating themselves with the Bolshevik revolution. At the same time, the USA likewise exploited the abuses within the Russian system, billing them as "communism" even though they sprang from the totalitarian government and not from their self proclaimed economic system, because here in the US, this gave the right/corporate interests a certain amount of moral authority to fight any economic controls that might impeded their powers. I don't know how well this worked out in brainwashing the Russians, but it has been an incredibly effective propaganda technique here in the USA.

Spilt milk.

Perhaps I overlooked it, but I haven't seen anything posted about anarcho-syndicalism. I confess I have been very curious about this economic/governmental system ever since I learned the world's leading intellectual Noam Chomsky claims it as his partisan stripe of choice. People like to poo poo it as an impossibly optimistic ideal, but AFAIK Spain was on the way to implementing such a system prior to WWII.

I don't necessarily know enough about it myself, but it makes for interesting discussion.

[Briton]

Re: Alternatives to Capitalism

I used to be into hard left, anarcho-syndicalism. Not anymore. I've had to admit that really capitalism is the only system that occurs naturally, organically. Socialism and anarchism etc are just not realistic, they really on a human nature that doesn't exist. Al we can do to progress is have capitalism and regulate it so that it doesn't get out of hand. Unfortunately that's not happening right now in a lot of the capitalist world.

[THANK...]

Re: Alternatives to Capitalism

@B. de Corbin, DanieMarie

Touche.

. . .

I used to be into Peter Kropotikins anarcho-communism philosophy, but as I grew up and realized that machines are already a big part of our work force and we are still slaves to capitalists, I gave up on it. I think anarchism has its good points as does monastic life, because they are similar, only one concentrates more on anti-policy and the other on religious indoctrination, but the philosophy behind the way of life is sound - sustainability, community effort, helping the greater human community.