SFSU Campus Employee Assaults White Sudent for Cultural Appropriation

[DanieMarie]

Re: SFSU Campus Employee Assaults White Sudent for Cultural Appropriation

That is one of the main arguments against returning the Parthenon Marbles, but I think we do have to rethink how we negotiate and display artifacts. I don't think that creating fair negotiations and returning contested objects to countries that truly want them back will empty museums of all international artifacts. A lot of cultures simply want certain items back (the Greeks aren't all that concerned with most of the numerous sculptures on display all over the world, for example. They just want those marbles back). I think in a lot of cases, museums could work together with different countries and regions to create a cultural exchange rather than just displaying the plunders of colonialism.

To be honest, it gets a bit boring in Europe. I'd love to learn more about prehistoric European peoples and such, but so little attention is dedicated to that. In Berlin, all of the major museums display foreign artifacts, but only one (and it's on the margins of the city) dedicates any space to ancient people from -this- country. The best museum totally dedicated to that sort of thing is in Halle. Why aren't we telling our own stories more often? We're so much more than just war and the Berlin Wall.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: SFSU Campus Employee Assaults White Sudent for Cultural Appropriation

The Elgin marbles are problematic, and the whole thing is not as clear-cut as it is sometimes presented. Lord Elgin brought them to England because the Ottoman Turks were intentionally destroying them. The Ottoman Empire was, at the time, the legal and recognized government of Greece, and Elgin bought the sculptures from them, to save them from destruction.

This makes the legal issues very muddy - certainly if the original intent was to save them, they should be returned now that Greece is it's own country where they would be safe, but I guess there is no legal obligation to be nice.

[DanieMarie]

Re: SFSU Campus Employee Assaults White Sudent for Cultural Appropriation

The Elgin marbles are problematic, and the whole thing is not as clear-cut as it is sometimes presented. Lord Elgin brought them to England because the Ottoman Turks were intentionally destroying them. The Ottoman Empire was, at the time, the legal and recognized government of Greece, and Elgin bought the sculptures from them, to save them from destruction.

This makes the legal issues very muddy - certainly if the original intent was to save them, they should be returned now that Greece is it's own country where they would be safe, but I guess there is no legal obligation to be nice.

Pretty much. I think the entire legality of the issue is kind of murky simply because the Greeks were under occupation at the time. By today's standards, even if the Turks legally gave permission to remove them, they didn't really have a right to do so.

As far as safety is concerned, the museum in Athens built to house them is top-of-the-line. They definitely wouldn't be under threat there. A few pieces have been returned by other countries and are currently on display.

I think I might feel the way I do because I've been to both museums. I've seen them at the British Museum, and I've seen the Parthenon Museum at the Acropolis. It definitely feels like they'd be more at home in the latter. That's not to say that all Greek artifacts can only be displayed properly in Greece, but in this case, it definitely has a more authentic feel. You can go see where they came from, then walk down the hill and see them in a very well lit, safe display. In context, it just works much better than battling hoards of people who mostly want to look at mummies.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: SFSU Campus Employee Assaults White Sudent for Cultural Appropriation

Just to toss a wrench into a functioning machine (), I could suggest that, in the time they have been in the British Museum they have become a part of British culture.

The British museum was enormously instrumental in the preservation and study of artifacts which were not considered either important or meaningful in the places they were taken from (Consider the pyramids - the exteriors are in bad shape because the locals looted them for building materials, or this - parts of that great wonder, the Lighthouse at Alexandria can still be seen - incorporated into the breakwater where they were used as filler). That these artifacts are now treated with dignity is largely due to that history, and the British Museum.

This may be why many British people voice a strong opposition to returning those sculptures.

[DanieMarie]

Re: SFSU Campus Employee Assaults White Sudent for Cultural Appropriation

Yeah, it's not a black and white issue for sure and there are definitely arguments for both sides. I think that's why these have to be decided case-by-case. In this particular case, I support returning the marbles to Greece. But I don't support all cases for returning items to countries of origin.

I definitely agree that the British Museum is a wonderful institution that has done a lot to preserve and study artifacts and cultures. I'm not knocking the institution as a whole! I just think that in this case and maybe some other similar cases, they should be returned. However, that doesn't mean that I think the museum is bad or that it should empty out its displays and ship everything back.

I would like to point out though that a lot of the British public does think that the marbles should go back to Greece, and only a minority thinks they shouldn't at all: https://yougov.co.uk/news/2014/10/18...bles-returned/

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/elgin-marbles-row-greece-tells-british-government-to-stop-stonewalling-on-return-of-parthenon-10093558.html

[thalassa]

Re: SFSU Campus Employee Assaults White Sudent for Cultural Appropriation

I'm not sure that genetic and cultural ancestry automatically confers (right) ownership. There's an episode of SeaQuest (if you aren't familiar, its an early 90's underwater Star Trek-esque tv show) where they find a mostly intact portion of the Alexandria Library collection in an annex that is under the ocean--the countries representing the goods found there are negotiating over who gets what, etc. The science people want the collection to stay together--its been that way all along, and keeping it together says a lot about how things work. None of the countries can decide what to do with what, who should get what--Egypt wants it all, the countries that the originating cultures are want this or that, etc. The climax is when the captain (the guy from JAWS) smashes an artifact--an artifact made in the manner of one culture, with materials from a second culture, depicting a scene of a ritual from a third culture with people wearing clothing styles of a people from a fourth culture (I'm exaggerating a little bit--I think it actually stops at the second culture, but the point is the same)...I mean, who do you give that to? Who owns that piece of pottery?


Do the modern Greeks truly own something because their ancestors---of a culture and religion they no longer follow---created it?

To make it more complicated...what about groups like the Anasazi or the Cahokia? Who speaks for them? They have descendants too...


Cultures are not static. A culture in two points in time, that far apart are not the same culture. At what point does human history belong to humans, period?

[DanieMarie]

Re: SFSU Campus Employee Assaults White Sudent for Cultural Appropriation

Like I said, though, having been to both places, I think they work better in Greece. The Greeks have a much better and more informative display dedicated to them, and I think the fact that their place of origin is right next door really adds to the experience of viewing them. They are stunning works of art, but the space they're currently in doesn't really do them a lot of justice. The British Museum has some fantastic displays and exhibits, but sometimes they can feel a bit like a bunch of stuff in a room.

Not to say that it's my only reason for thinking they should go back, but it definitely contributes to my opinion on the matter.

[thalassa]

Re: SFSU Campus Employee Assaults White Sudent for Cultural Appropriation

Pretty much. I think the entire legality of the issue is kind of murky simply because the Greeks were under occupation at the time. By today's standards, even if the Turks legally gave permission to remove them, they didn't really have a right to do so.

Sure they did. The Greeks lost. Just because someone doesn't like the history and has a different set of morals today and now judges it "wrong" or "not fair" doesn't negate the fact that this was a time period where might made right.

Applying modern values to historical peoples is its own ethnocentrism.

[DanieMarie]

Re: SFSU Campus Employee Assaults White Sudent for Cultural Appropriation

Sure they did. The Greeks lost. Just because someone doesn't like the history and has a different set of morals today and now judges it "wrong" or "not fair" doesn't negate the fact that this was a time period where might made right.

So I guess in that case, the Germans would have had a right to sell anything they wanted from occupied France? And we all would have just had to deal with it?

- - - Updated - - -

I'll add that both museums are very vocal about their sides, and offer a lot of information on-site. Having heard both sides, I still side with the Greeks.

[thalassa]

Re: SFSU Campus Employee Assaults White Sudent for Cultural Appropriation

So I guess in that case, the Germans would have had a right to sell anything they wanted from occupied France? And we all would have just had to deal with it?

Applying modern values to historical peoples is its own ethnocentrism.

WWII is modern history--apply modern values to modern history all you want.

And, in the end Germany lost.


I'm not saying they shouldn't give the marbles back, I'm saying that "By today's standards, even if the Turks legally gave permission to remove them, they didn't really have a right to do so" is a terrible rationale for it.

[DanieMarie]

Re: SFSU Campus Employee Assaults White Sudent for Cultural Appropriation

Fair enough.

Anyway, my main feelings on the issue (and just this specific issue, not all other cultural ownership issues) are:

-The Greeks still feel they have a right to ownership of the marbles, and they're not necessarily wrong. The marbles were removed without -their- permission.
-The legality of the original removal is a bit murky, and the documentation is a little shady.
-Protecting them isn't an argument anymore, as they have a stable, safe place to go to.
-From an education and study perspective, the Parthenon Museum in Athens is a better place for them. This is by far the biggest reason I think they should go there. In this case, they work well in their original context. I was really impressed with the museum and it's only real failing is that it doesn't contain much of the artifacts it was built to house.

I do see the British Museum's side of things as well, which is more that it worries that if it returns the marbles, it will be a slippery slope. However, I don't think it would hurt the museum to consider new avenues of cooperation. Also, as long as it assesses claims on a case-by-case basis, it shouldn't end up empty. In a lot of cases, artifacts are safer where they are (for example, there are a lot of Assyrian artifacts there. They'd probably best stay there).

[anunitu]

Re: SFSU Campus Employee Assaults White Sudent for Cultural Appropriation

Do I smell a slippery slop here about's...Tread lightly so as not to slip and slide........April fools also seems to be here somewhere too.

[DanieMarie]

Re: SFSU Campus Employee Assaults White Sudent for Cultural Appropriation

I hate April Fools.

[anunitu]

Re: SFSU Campus Employee Assaults White Sudent for Cultural Appropriation

Also,go to far,and we will be arguing about who owns Dino turds....

[DanieMarie]

Re: SFSU Campus Employee Assaults White Sudent for Cultural Appropriation

Fossils aren't cultural artifacts. Unless the dinosaurs had an advanced culture that we aren't aware of.