Enter the Linguistic Pagan! 参上！言語学の異教徒！

[Lilium of the Valley]

Re: Enter the Linguistic Pagan!　参上！言語学の異教徒！

ooohhh i LOVE languages. I've always been very interested in them! I speak fluent German (and English of course duh lol ) and currently am learning Arabic! Also I spent about a year and a half studying spanish don't think I could follow a conversation in it anymore though...sadly.

[Doc_Holliday]

Re: Enter the Linguistic Pagan!　参上！言語学の異教徒！

Very excited to begin learning Mohawk tomorrow. Thankfully it uses the same alphabet as English but I can see it will be a huge challenge.

We'll see how it goes.

[Doc_Holliday]

Re: Enter the Linguistic Pagan!　参上！言語学の異教徒！

Very excited to begin learning Mohawk tomorrow. Thankfully it uses the same alphabet as English but I can see it will be a huge challenge.

We'll see how it goes.

It went awfully

[Jembru]

Re: Enter the Linguistic Pagan!　参上！言語学の異教徒！

It went awfully

In what way? I mean, even if you only know 3 words you can take pride in the fact that you know more now than you did before you started! And if you happen to know just 10 adjectives, 10 nouns and 10 verbs... you can actually already say 1000 different sentences! Maybe not grammatically accurate sentences, and most would be nonsense you'd never need to say, but the point I'm making is that even a small amount of knowledge has its value, even if you're a long way off that golden 'fluency' we all dream of!

[AnaFae]

Re: Enter the Linguistic Pagan!　参上！言語学の異教徒！

I mean, even if you only know 3 words you can take pride in the fact that you know more now than you did before you started! And if you happen to know just 10 adjectives, 10 nouns and 10 verbs... you can actually already say 1000 different sentences! Maybe not grammatically accurate sentences, and most would be nonsense you'd never need to say, but the point I'm making is that even a small amount of knowledge has its value, even if you're a long way off that golden 'fluency' we all dream of!

I feel like printing this and sticking into my wall!! That's very motivational for language learning!!
sorry for the late reply btw lol
I love learning new languages too!!! I'm brazilian and my first language is brazilian portuguese, my father is italian so I know a lil bit of it too(not enough to me fluent unfortunately), I started having english lessons when I was around 10 years old and now I believe I'm pretty good at it :3 I took some japanese lessons some years ago because I had an awful weaboo phase I'm great speaking japanese but my reading/writing skills are lame! I'm studying swedish now :3 And I hope to start latin lessons soon!!

[N�re]

Re: Enter the Linguistic Pagan!　参上！言語学の異教徒！

What I haven't posted anything here?

I love languages. Or not love in the way that I'd be all excited about grammar or studying or that I had many friends that spoke "my" languages (I don't).
But well, I speak Finnish, Swedish, German, English and some (Mandarin) Chinese and Russian (far too little Russian because I've actually studied it for 5 years and I was relatively young so I should have picked it sort of easily).
And then I've tried to study all kinds of languages but it never ends well since I can't organise my things by myself. Studying languages as a hobby is almost impossible because I don't really like the learning part. I just like the idea of being able to use a language. Properly.
But it would be cool to learn a language from the very beginnings (that'd be probably Chinese then because I've been exposed to those other languages ever since I was a child. I'm not a cool multilingual kid though (sound of bitterness here: for some reason I'm really ashamed of my first language and the fact that I'm not a polyglot or whatever those linguistic wunderkinds are). So perhaps it just better to take what I've been given.

[Jembru]

Re: Enter the Linguistic Pagan!　参上！言語学の異教徒！

Finally a conversation on my level. lol

I'm the opposite of you. I quite enjoy the learning part, but that's just as well really because I don't have any natural talent for languages. What ability I have I gained through raw grit and grind. So naturally I secretly hate people like my partner who can just hear a word, or a sentence once and is able to reproduce it when speaking with native speakers weeks later. It used to cause me great distress that I wanted this so badly yet had to work so hard to make even a small amount of progress, but I'm at peace with it now. It would be less of an achievement if I had been able to snooze my way to fluency. Many of those who pick up languages quickly, would probably have quit if it had been as hard for them as it is for me. In fact, I've watched many people quit when they realise how much work is involved. So I feel I have something very precious that I really had to work at. It makes me feel proud of myself.

I studied German for a while a few years ago, but don't really remember any now. It's definitely a language I intend to return to though. We have a German thread here somewhere and if it were to start up again, I'd definitely watch it closely, and who knows, maybe even make a lame attempt to join in, if I can open my textbooks under the weight of all that dust. I don't think I want to be a polyglot though. I don't like people enough to want to communicate with that many. ^^

[N�re]

Re: Enter the Linguistic Pagan!　参上！言語学の異教徒！

I don't think I want to be a polyglot though. I don't like people enough to want to communicate with that many. ^^

I need to adopt that attitude!

But yes, it takes a lot of work to learn a language. And a certain amount of humility. As much as I'd like to boast that I speak language X it's no use if I can't/don't want to use it with native speakers - or even other learners who are better than me. (Perhaps that's why I've sometimes picked the most obscure languages to learn.. At least no one can laugh at my skills if they haven't even heard of the language.)
But on the other hand I guess it's rewarding when one reaches some level of fluency.

Ugh. *headdesk* This topic (or more like: my thoughts about studying a language) makes me wonder (again) why did I go to university to study languages. I should have just focused on donut-robbing.

[Jembru]

Re: Enter the Linguistic Pagan!　参上！言語学の異教徒！

Ah, the so-called 'perfectionist paralysis'. This is a disease of self-study. The symptoms actually worsen the longer it goes unchecked, because the more you know, the longer you've studied, the harder it is to accept that your performance is less than perfect. It had me in its grasp for quite a while, and in fact, even now I clam up in front of people who've never heard me speak before. It's a combination of finding polite Japanese difficult to use, (I can use it in writing and I understand most polite, honourific and humble grammatical conventions and expressions, but producing these is a real challenge for me), and wanting to show them how good I am, while knowing that in reality I'm going to make lots of silly mistakes.

You see, the reason self-learners are more vulnerable to perfectionist paralysis is that they are often not in a position to use the language with other speakers. This leads them to skip the physical training of their vocal chords. Head knowledge doesn't automatically lead to the muscle memory required to take those words and grammar rules out of your brain and make smooth and comprehensible verbal communication. Some linguists even go so far as to say language is an entirely physical skill, that a 'word' isn't the symbols used to write it down, but the precise noise one makes to produce it. It's the shape of the mouth, the movement of the tongue, the vibrations of the vocal chords. To a lesser extent though, muscle memory, especially automatic reflex, also applies to writing skills. In either case, once you start using a language regularly, you start to notice patterns and even form your own unique set of 'go-to' phrases that just roll off the tongue. These easy fillers buy you time to think about the words you don't know so well, shortening the 'um, um,' pauses, and keeping your speech flowing. BUT they only appear when you step away from the textbooks and start using the language, speaking aloud. In an odd way, it parallels the mastery of magic in this sense.. that until you start working with magic and casting spells, no amount of reading will make you a skillful witch/practitioner.

Breaking the cycle of perfectionist paralysis comes from realising that you don't need to wait until you know every last word, every idiom, every grammar rule, before you can speak fluently. One can be 'fluent' with surprisingly low vocabulary, so long as they've mastered the physical skills of conversation. Just look at speakers of your native language, there will be those who like to use big fancy words, and there'll be those who get through life just fine without using, or even understanding much of that vocabulary. Yet you wouldn't say they weren't fluent in their mother-tongue.

To illustrate this in context, yesterday I came by a word I didn't know in Japanese. It was kyoukyuusha (供給者). This means 'supplier' which is a business word, and as I don't do business in Japanese, it's hardly surprising that I didn't recognise it when I heard it. However, if I'd needed this word in a conversation for reasons unknown, I'd have a few options. I could take an estimated guess that like so many words in modern Japanese, the Japanese pronunciation of the English would work and just say 'sapuraiyaa' (and in fact I checked and this word, written 'サプライヤー', does indeed exist and according to jisho.org even made it into the 'common words' category, so would definitely have been understood). Or I could do what I often do and say '業界には材料や商品を配る人' which is basically, 'the person who distributes goods or materials'. Maybe I'd throw in a raised eyebrow or bashful giggle to show that I didn't know the proper word (the Japanese are experts at picking up on subtle hints, because of linguistic and social conventions around being direct). Or I could word it as a question, 'what do you call the person who...'. In many cases, I've found that you can get by just fine without drawing attention to the fact you didn't know the word, just by circumventing the word altogether like this. With practice, you become a master of saying what you can, rather than what you'd ideally like to.

The thing is, no amount of textbook knowledge or test scores can teach you these skills. I've been helping a friend with conversation practice over skype since last year. She had already passed the highest level of the Japanese proficiency text (JLPT N1), can read novels with relative ease (I'm still on kids stories with reduced kanji), and has a considerably higher vocabulary than I do, and yet she couldn't hold a conversation. Due to her vast knowledge and certified achievements, the fact that her knowledge hadn't translated into skill devastated her. I'm pleased to report that she's doing very well now, and will very soon leave me in the dust skill wise! But it was a slow and emotionally draining process for her, as it was for me too when I first faced it, and it took us much humility and acceptance that we were speaking just as slowly and clumsily as a beginner does, before we were able to move beyond that.

Please forgive the plug (and of course don't feel obliged to read, there won't be a follow-up exam), but I actually wrote a 4 part series of articles about language exchange for my friend's forum, that goes into a bit more detail about how to break the cycle of fear when it comes to communicating in a foreign language;

Part one, Introduction: http://www.gaiwa.co/2014/02/an-intro...-exchange.html
Part two, Exchanging face to face: http://www.gaiwa.co/2014/04/exchangi...e-to-face.html
Part three, Exchanging online: http://www.gaiwa.co/2014/05/exchangi...es-online.html
Part Four, practicing with other learners: http://www.gaiwa.co/2014/06/practici...-learners.html

[Jembru]

Re: Enter the Linguistic Pagan!　参上！言語学の異教徒！

Saying as other members have expressed an interest in having a specific place to chat about languages/linguistics, I'll take the bull by the horns and get this old girl fired up again.

So, I just read this article about fillers and I was really interested about the fact that they're used as a signal to the listener that you have more to say. I've never thought of them in this way before.

In the concept of a second language, I use them to stall. They allow my Japanese to keep flowing so that I sound more fluent. Well, maybe not so much ええっと (eetto) and あの～(anou), which are most similar to 'um' and 'eh' in English that seem to break the flow, but there are fillers that keep the rhythm of the sentence bouncing while you think. One I often use is, なんか(nanka), which is very similar to 'kinda' in English, (which I also use quite a lot). We're spoilt in Japanese actually, because there are so many ways you can stall. There's no equivalent in English, but there are ne and sa, which take a similar role to 'right' in sentences such as, 'get this.. my gran, right.. she lost her glasses and then we found them in the fridge', only they're used much more commonly in Japanese and are usually ignored when translating, because they add nothing to the sentence. I LOVE these words.

I'll show how they work using a sentence Eofor used because then I know at least one other person will understand it.

猫が走っている。Neko ga hashitte iru. (the cat is running).

In a conversation, say I don't instantly remember the word for 'to run'. I can pause by doing this..

猫なんかさ、走ってるね。Nako nanka sa, hashitte'ru ne. 'The cat, right.. it's running isn't it'. They're intercangable too, so you can say 猫なんかね.. although sa is traditionally a masculine word so we girlies tend to use it less. These words are so common in Japanese that you can almost construct an entire sentence from them.

あのさ、彼、なんか下手ね。ano sa, kare, nanka heta ne 'but y'know, he's kinda crap, right?' (Only kare 'he' and heta 'unskillful' are proper words in this sentence).

So fillers then.. not something you study much in textbooks because they're not generally used in writing (although the casual style adopted online and in text messaging is arguably changing that), and overuse can make you sound dumb in any language. They're avoided in polite Japanese for this reason, despite being very common in casual conversation. However, fillers are something you adopt by interacting with native speakers, and are very handy in making your speech sound more natural and spontaneous, and less like a string of memorised phrases.

What are the fillers in the languages you know? Or your mother tongue? Are they used more, or less often than in English? Do you use them much yourself?

[LearningMan]

Re: Enter the Linguistic Pagan!　参上！言語学の異教徒！

As I've posted elsewhere, I learned Esperanto on Duolingo, and will soon resume my Ukrainian course. I've been wondering what language I'll learn after those two, but I think I'll wait until after I've learned to speak Ukrainian.

[Eofor]

Re: Enter the Linguistic Pagan!　参上！言語学の異教徒！

Awesome, Jembru! Good examples, too. I have a question, though. Is "ね" in this case only used by girls? Or is it just more common for you? Also, do these fillers sound strange when used by a non-native?

In Portuguese we have a lot of them. We use "meio que", which is equivalent to "kind of", a lot. In the beginning of the sentence, it's common the use of "" and "Bem", which in this case (and only in this case) mean something like "so". Another very useful word is "tipo", which can mean a lot of things. At last, there is "", which can be translated as "I don't know...". Let's see some examples:

", eu meio que estou namorando."
(So, I'm kind of in a relationship)

Very often, when people use "meio que" this way, they are either shy or trying not to be rude.

", tipo, ir ao cinema..."
(Er... Do you want to do something? I don't know, like, go to the movies..."

There are plenty more, but I'd spend the entire day writing them.

[Jembru]

Re: Enter the Linguistic Pagan!　参上！言語学の異教徒！

ね can be used by either gender, but females seem to use it a bit more in my experience. It has another related use that does come up in textbooks, which is as a tag at the end of the sentence. In this use, it is used by either gender, often at the end of every sentence in an exchange. Gender differences are gradually becoming less marked, with females getting away with masculine styles more and more. さ is generally avoided, especially by women, in polite contexts though.

Most of the learners I know are able to hold a conversation and they all use ね and さ and they sound perfectly normal. Once you pick them up it's hard to avoid using them. Your brain just naturally employs them because that's just how the language is used. In my experience at least.

It's probably best that beginners avoid them only because they might not know when it's natural or appropriate. That said, the Japanese are far more forgiving of foreigners than the textbooks would lead you to believe.

- - - Updated - - -

As I've posted elsewhere, I learned Esperanto on Duolingo, and will soon resume my Ukrainian course. I've been wondering what language I'll learn after those two, but I think I'll wait until after I've learned to speak Ukrainian.

What are you using to practice your Ukrainian? Does Lang8 have a good Ukrainian user base? Do you have people you can speak with and do you practice speaking as part of your regular schedule? Only asking because you wouldn't believe the amount of people who want to be able to speak Japanese and never get there because their study methods are wrong for that goal.

[N�re]

Re: Enter the Linguistic Pagan!　参上！言語学の異教徒！

Those filler words, I think Swedish and Finnish have quite similar ones, when it comes to meaning and use:

In Swedish there is the basic Finnish has the same. Or at least the long which sounds like the I in 'bird'.
Then there is, again in Swedish, liksom and typ which is 'like'. (The probably irritating 'like', not the verb!) Finnish equivalent to it would be niinku or even tyyliin. In both languages those sound a bit like teen speak but they are still quite widely used by others as well.
And then there is (swe) and siis (fin), again meaning the same thing. I have no idea how to translate this to English. (I asked the almighty google and it suggested 'thus'. Well, not quite.) It can be used as so. But basically it is just a word you put in a sentence when you want to explain or demonstrate something, in this way. (I don't know if putting these words into English sentences make any sense to those who speak something else than Finnish or Swedish because putting those words there is pretty much common sense to me but probably it is just alien to those who haven't yet hammered them in their heads.)
Finnish has also tota which is only used in speech. Again, I have no English translation for this one, it's just... tota...a word you use in a middle of sentence to give you some time to gather your thoughts!
Swedish also has bara which means 'only' but it can be used as a filler. It's also used with the aforementioned liksom. What a powerful combo we've got there - but still no inherent meaning! Similar combinations could be found in Finnish: siis niinku tyyliin.

I've probably forgotten something crucial but at least these are really common.

[Jembru]

An Afternoon Nap

It's warm today,
What a gentle breeze
The butterlies are flying
The ants are marching

The heatwaves are shimmering
It makes me want to take a nap
Then no doubt I'll have
Dreams of violets

When I wake from my nap
And stretch out my body
The day is still long
This sultry spring day

Quite pleasant right? It's snappy, but you can really imagine the late spring heat of Japan, and that feeling of pleasant drowsiness. But google translate gives us... ready for it...

Google translate;

Day nap

Warm today
Wind I friendly
Flying butterfly Author
It is also walking ants

Shimmer is it is shaking
Want to nap
Violet dream
I seen surely

In wake up from nap
From someone's standpoint stretch
Still day long
Simmering To spring day

There are words in there that aren't even in the original! ^^ Some people don't realise when they're translating English words or phrases into Japanese to pretend they can speak it, that it is coming out as weird as the English above.

Is it this bad for European languages? Or is it just particularly bad for Japanese?