Guns

[monsno_leedra]

Re: Guns

The weapons they are currently required to keep on hand, with ammunition, are full auto.

Previously, it was the straight pull Schmit-Rubin K-31, an outstanding target rifle - even the military ammo was target quality (I have one. It's the only gun that I can not reload for better than the military ammo). The Swiss government sponsors marksmanship competitions with military rifles, and shooting is a national sport.

But I doubt if it's the guns that keep the violence down. They also have a long history of non-diversity, which may have something to do with it... Or it may be something else. Hard to say.

Thanks for the update.

I agree it's more than just the fact of having a gun. It's a total mindset and social perspective I think and even that is only the tip of that iceberg.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Guns

For people who are interested in a more sophisticated look at the causes of violence in the US, aside from meaninglessly simplistic "gun crazy/gun culture," I suggest the massive and well referenced historical look at global violence, written by Steven Pinker - The Better Angels of Our Nature: Why Violence has Declined.

It will annoy the species haters, the self loathers, those who like to view humans as a blight on the earth, the fatalist so who like to imagine that we are all going to hell in an express elevator because, the fact is, the world is safer for humans from humans than it has ever been before... Despite what one is constantly told.

Or, one can skip the scholarship and get the short form from this TED Talk:

[kalynraye]

Re: Guns

I don't have problems with guns, I do believe there should be a limit. I think I might have said this before but I don't see the point of any civilian owning a machine gun, FUN or not. You don't need it. If you want home protection well a rifle, not a semi automatic, or shot gun or even a hand gun can do the trick. These are even perfect for hunting so look those two items are checked off the list. I'm not down for having guns for fun. Nor do I feel we need to be armed to the teeth. We do own a hand gun, and it is loaded at all times but I also don't have children in my house. Also kitchen knives are not the same thing as a gun. I work with those every day and they are completely different then a gun lets not compare them please. Yes they can be used for a weapon but so can a spoon.

[Tylluan Penry]

Re: Guns

Actually, what the UK does is the business of the U.K. residents, and I'm not all that interested inUK stats. I'm just reading a highly respected UK newspaper, in between the articles that ridicule the US for it's gun laws.

I don't have a great deal of faith in "the news" anyway, but I did find this (from the last article referenced) interesting - because while UK police may not carry guns, they call in their armed compatriots regularly:

I quite agree that what the US does is its own business. And vice versa.
And yes, the UK police do call in the ARU (Armed Response Units) quite often. Our definition of gun crime and apparently even of violent crimes is rather different from the UK - which is all I was trying to get across with my previous post.

One reason we have specially trained armed officers is because it is felt this work requires special training. It is possible, in the UK to be a perfectly good copper and not a marksman, or carry a gun. All I was trying to say that there is no right or wrong in all of this, only death and mayhem, which in themselves are tragedies.

[kalynraye]

Re: Guns

Agreed 100% with you madam

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Guns

I quite agree that what the US does is its own business. And vice versa.
And yes, the UK police do call in the ARU (Armed Response Units) quite often. Our definition of gun crime and apparently even of violent crimes is rather different from the UK - which is all I was trying to get across with my previous post.

One reason we have specially trained armed officers is because it is felt this work requires special training. It is possible, in the UK to be a perfectly good copper and not a marksman, or carry a gun. All I was trying to say that there is no right or wrong in all of this, only death and mayhem, which in themselves are tragedies.

I need to apologize. I was still groggy from anesthesia when I wrote that, and it prolly was rougher than I should have been.

I did, BTW, review the site you referenced, and I (already) am aware of differences in definitions of types of crime between US & UK - anybody informed in this issue should be, because it is difficult to make comparisons otherwise.

But still, admitting as we must that there is more violent crime in the US than in the UK, we still don't know WHY that is.

And, on the issue of draconian gun control (for the record, I FULLY and TOTALLY support reasonable gun control legislation), the Guardian articles I cited seem to indicate that it does not work.

We need to understand why violent crime occurs. It is the only way to develop ways to reduce it. Blaming guns is a easy-cheesy non-solution. I think we, in the US, need to drop all the crap from both sides of the gun control debate, and spend our energy on developing actual solutions, based on something other than political platforms.

- - - Updated - - -

If you want home protection well a rifle, not a semi automatic, or shot gun or even a hand gun can do the trick. These are even perfect for hunting so look those two items are checked off the list. I'm not down for having guns for fun.

You mean "full" auto. Aside from black powder, most handguns are either wheel guns or semi-auto. Many, many hunting rifles are also semi-auto.

As far as having guns for fun, honestly, YOU don't have to like it in order for ME to do it.

I don't hunt, nor do I need one for self defense, but I do target shoot, and I collect WWI and WWII rifles. If there is something violent or dangerous in having guns to poke holes in paper from a long way away, or enjoying historical artifacts, that is not there in hunting or self defense, I can't see what it is.

[anunitu]

Re: Guns

They(the collective they) mention mental health a lot. One question might be do we as a culture "Breed" paranoia into our population? I wonder just why a large group is always prepping for disaster and end of the world,or life as we know it. Why do many think everything we know will just fall away. This type of thinking "Might" just put people into a mindset of "Nothing matters cause its all gonna burn down anyway". So,I have nothing to loose,so I will go out in a blaze of glory or something like that. Fatalistic to the point of taking everyone with us??

[Munin-Hugin]

Re: Guns

I'm gonna jump around a bit and post up a few things I've been thinking about regarding this thread, so bear with my rambling and random topic hopping, though it all is related to guns in it's own way.

While this is a fact not strictly related to guns, it does have a connection, especially with the constant "GUNS ARE EVIL" mentality that exists out there. In the past 20ish years (1991), overall violent crime rate has been reduced BY HALF across the country, and is about on par with how it was 40ish years ago (1971). Yet, to hear folks talk about it, today you can't walk outside your door at night without worrying that someone is going to kill you, kidnap you, or break into your home. Reports also show that there is a similar decrease in gun related violence in approximately the same amount of time, and again is on par with 40 years ago as well. We're in no more danger today then when your folks (or yourself, since I remember doing this in the 80s and 90s) would talk about how they never used to lock their doors or their cars at night or when they went out. In fact, the "killer rifle", including the various assault varieties, is drastically overshadowed by the simple knife who is responsible for FIVE TIMES as many deaths.

Next Thought: Here in CT, the laws regarding self defense, property defense, and the like can get pretty tricky. In fact, if someone were to break into your home and you ended up having to kill that person, you'd be better off dragging the body outside before calling the police then allowing the corpse to cool in your home. Self defense only saves your ass if you can prove that you had no other means of escape. So if an armed man chases you through your home and you wind up in your bedroom where you pull your gun from the nightstand and shoot him, you're still at fault if you would have been able to climb out the window to get away. Oddly enough, from the way I understand it, it's justifiable if they are trying to unlawfully gain entrance to your home, but once they are inside you have to try to get away.

Another: I've never owned a gun, I've never even fired a gun. Growing up, my parents drilled into us a fear and a dislike for them, so far as going to the extent of saying that they were useless and no "good" person would ever want to own one, never mind use one. Actually, they have a very "violence in all forms is awful" sort of world view. I held onto that gun belief for quite a while, since as a child you don't really see that mom and dad could actually be wrong about something. Though violence and the like, not so much. I remember my dad once saying to me after I asked if I could sharpen one of the knives (because it looked like how I pictured a character's dagger from a book to look like) "Why does everything have to be a weapon to you? That's not right." Perhaps it was because of that, that today I find a simple beauty in weaponry of all kinds, from the craftsmanship of them, to the usage, to how they perform. And while I've not gone so far yet as to look into firearm courses and training, it has been on my mind for the past few years. I wonder why I ever thought that it was the instrument that caused the problem, instead of the individual using it.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Guns

This op-Ed piece pretty much sums up my feelings:

Hello... Moderate Gun Owners. Where ARE You?

I want an option other than "ban all" and "resist all change," but (Alas!) since all we get in America toady is crap news, crap politics, and crap shouting matches, all we end up with is crap thinking, crap choices, and crap decisions.

It does not have to be this way.

We need people who engage in real thought, and we need to see them do it right out in public.

[kalynraye]

Re: Guns

I don't hunt, nor do I need one for self defense, but I do target shoot, and I collect WWI and WWII rifles. If there is something violent or dangerous in having guns to poke holes in paper from a long way away, or enjoying historical artifacts, that is not there in hunting or self defense, I can't see what it is.

No your are completely correct in the fact that it matters not what I think if you own them or not. I grew up in a house full of guns. Pieces that have been passed down from father to son, and I have no problem with those at all. But I do believe there should be a limit. What does anyone need a machine gun for, honestly?????? And because its fun or cool just does not seem like justification enough for me to own one. Once again, I know not my call but at the same time it is because I live in this country too and I don't feel safe knowing my neighbor can or does own one.

I have absolutely no wish to ban them all. Like I said we own a gun, and I have fired it. But limits would be nice.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Guns

Legally, very few people have full auto guns.

A legal full auto, plus yearly licensing fees, plus the cost of ammo (estimate $0.75 per round with a rate of fire of 700 rounds per minute), puts them out of the price range of pretty much everybody in this country...

[DragonsFriend]

Re: Guns

Licensing fees $200 is a one time payment. That allows you to purchase one gun and to own it. If the machine gun, mortar, antiaircraft gun or anti-tank weapon (rocket launcher) is ever transferred the new buyer has to pay the tax. Ammunition is expensive and most who own these guns reload for a full year for a week of fun shooting at one of the events that go on annually. They are fun to shoot and there are a lot of folks who get together just to shoot these weapons of war to have a good time with good people.
I own a few guns but none are full auto. I have uses for the guns I buy and own but I buy them because I want to and not for any need. There is one valid need for full auto guns that I can see, to protect this republic from enemies foreign or domestic. That includes a government that refuses to recognize the constitution and the republic which was built upon it.The USA can never be a socialist democracy because the constitution guarantees a republican form of government to each and all the states. The constitution also guarantees the rights of the individual over the vote of the majority. The constitution does not bestow our rights as they are birth rights given by the fact of our birth as humans. The constitution does point out that governments are supposed to protect the rights of the individual which they have done a poor job of since 1930. The fact is there are over two million new gun owners since Obama took office and there is at least one gun in the hands of private citizens for every person in the USA. The people of the USA, as armed citizens, out number the three largest military forces combined and we have more guns than they do. We do not have the same firepower and resources but in a guerrilla type fight we would win over any one of the military forces in the world. That is in fact why Japan never invaded the mainland of the USA. They feared the sheer number of guns in the hands of civilians. that may be the reason that the government is trying so hard to disarm us. It is difficult to control an armed citizenry with force or threat of force.

[anunitu]

Re: Guns

Revolution no matter its reason has always ended very badly. South America is an example of revolution and its outcome. War,and war of an internal nature is always doomed to bring suffering and death to many innocent people,and it is a sorry way to express your displeasure with the Gov.

[DragonsFriend]

Re: Guns

War is only valid when all other means have been exhausted. Yes, the only good in war is that it should end quickly. Internal wars never do end quickly but slavery to a tyrannical force is worse than war.

[DanieMarie]

Re: Guns

There's a lot of article posting going on here, but also a lot of forgetting about the fact that the media (even well respected media like the Guardian) love to sensationalize things. I think this is one area where statistics are helpful. The fact is that gun deaths per capita (and overall homicide rates, which have dropped in most countries over the last couple of decades) are a fraction in places like the UK and Germany than what they are in the US. I'm not saying that our style of gun control would necessarily work for the US (I think the issue is more complicated than that, as there are just sooo many guns there) but our gun laws do clearly work for our own countries. Yes, there will always be a few that slip through the cracks, but I'd say that they're pretty successful overall and that any violence we do have wouldn't be resolved by having more guns.