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    #76
    Re: Guns

    Since there was more gun death/gun violence in the US than in the UK prior to the UK gun ban, the gun ban does not get credit for the lower rates. In a cause/effect relationship, the cause comes first.

    The Guardian articles are about intra-UK events, post ban.

    Do you have stats to back up the the success of the ban that disprove the data given in the articles? If so, provide, please.
    Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

    Comment

      #77
      Re: Guns

      Overall homicide rates by country: http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/VC.IHR.PSRC.P5
      Another source on homicide rates by country with similar but slightly different statistics: http://uk.businessinsider.com/oecd-h...15-6?r=US&IR=T
      Guns and homicide rates: http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/hicrc/fi...uns-and-death/
      Statistics on the US: http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/united-states
      Statistics on the UK: http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/united-kingdom
      Statistics on Germany: http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/germany

      Germany's spikes in gun violence mirror those in the UK, although no major changes in firearms policy have occurred, which leads me to believe that there must have been something else going on here at the time.

      The fact is, we can argue about policy for ages, but the homicide rates overall are a lot lower in countries with stricter gun control laws and gun deaths and gun homicides are a LOT lower. I'm not necessarily saying that the US has to adopt a European-style system of gun control as it's a different place with its own issues (Europe never had that many guns to begin with), but to say that our systems don't work for us is just not true.

      The Guardian articles you posted that stated that "gun violence was at an all-time high" do appear to be true, but the part that you're missing is that the "spike" (which was relatively low to begin with) dropped in subsequent years. And overall, gun deaths and homicides in the UK have dropped significantly since 1996 (before the new laws were enacted).
      Last edited by DanieMarie; 05 Oct 2015, 01:53.

      Comment

        #78
        Re: Guns

        I don't think you are understanding...

        Comparing different rates in different nations do not tell anything at all about intra country events...

        I need to see pre-ban and post-ban figures for the UK.

        Also, I can't help but notice that there is a significant movement to repeal the handgun ban taking place in the UK right now, as we speak. A server from The Telegraph indicated 80% support to repeal. I realize that this is not a scientific poll, but it seems to be the only data on opposition to the gun ban in the UK that is being reported. I wonder why that is...

        P.S. All the Guardian articles I cited were published in 2015, several years post ban, and current.
        Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

        Comment

          #79
          Re: Guns

          Correct me if I'm wrong, but these are the articles you posted:

          One in three young criminals is armed
          http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2000/sep/03/ukguns.tonythompson
          One in three criminals under the age of 25 owns or has access to a firearm, the Government's researchers have discovered.

          Gun crime rockets to record high
          http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2000/dec/31/ukcrime.ukguns
          Arms were used 15,000 times to commit offences this year alone. Tony Thompson investigates.

          Criminal gun use 'rose 40% after ban'
          http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2001/jul/16/ukguns1
          A pro-gun lobby group has attacked the government over laws that made handgun ownership illegal, after a study it commissioned found that the criminal use of handguns went up by 40% in the two years after the weapons were banned.


          Published 2000, 2000, and 2001.

          The statistics I posted cover a 15-year period between 1996 and 2011 and show an overall drop in gun deaths and homicides in that time period (the ban on handguns was enacted in 1996). The sharpest drop occurred directly after 1996. I think it's hard to say that gun crime was worse after the ban, despite what some UK-based nutjob interest groups would want everyone else to believe.

          PS according to UK government statistics, overall firearm-related offences have been steeply and consistently dropping since a peak in the mid-2000s: www.parliament.uk/briefing-papers/sn01940.pdf
          The offences involving handguns has also dropped significantly since the ban, so I think it's safe to say that banning handguns has not been ineffective overall.
          Last edited by DanieMarie; 05 Oct 2015, 02:54.

          Comment

            #80
            Re: Guns

            Crime in most developed countries, including the US, has been dropping since the mid 90s/2000s.

            It bears a striking correlation with a generation gap from the decline of environmental lead.

            Crime has a huge number of contributory factors, of which gun availability is only one. Trying to parse out what is what, is difficult for the people that do this for a living, muchless for the peanut gallery, And that is without discussing the problem of bias.
            Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
            sigpic

            Comment

              #81
              Re: Guns

              Just one statement:Topic,guns,good or bad....Tangent by some:Should we use arms to take the government over kinda...Repeat topic is simple :Guns good or bad....
              MAGIC is MAGIC,black OR white or even blood RED

              all i ever wanted was a normal life and love.
              NO TERF EVER WE belong Too.
              don't stop the tears.let them flood your soul.




              sigpic

              my new page here,let me know what you think.


              nothing but the shadow of what was

              witchvox
              http://www.witchvox.com/vu/vxposts.html

              Comment

                #82
                Re: Guns

                Also, according to that government website, air weapons such as BB guns and airsoft guns are incorporated into a lot of firearm offence statistics. Paintball guns and other types of guns are also included. So there's something to think about.

                Comment

                  #83
                  Re: Guns

                  Collective fetish for powerful fire sticks...

                  Then there is this.
                  MAGIC is MAGIC,black OR white or even blood RED

                  all i ever wanted was a normal life and love.
                  NO TERF EVER WE belong Too.
                  don't stop the tears.let them flood your soul.




                  sigpic

                  my new page here,let me know what you think.


                  nothing but the shadow of what was

                  witchvox
                  http://www.witchvox.com/vu/vxposts.html

                  Comment

                    #84
                    Re: Guns

                    Originally posted by thalassa View Post
                    Crime in most developed countries, including the US, has been dropping since the mid 90s/2000s.

                    It bears a striking correlation with a generation gap from the decline of environmental lead.

                    Crime has a huge number of contributory factors, of which gun availability is only one. Trying to parse out what is what, is difficult for the people that do this for a living, muchless for the peanut gallery, And that is without discussing the problem of bias.
                    This is true...and there are definitely a lot of factors that go into crime besides just guns. I'm not trying to deny that. I'm just trying to challenge the idea that gun control has been a failure in the UK. It has not.

                    Comment

                      #85
                      Re: Guns

                      Originally posted by DanieMarie View Post
                      Correct me if I'm wrong, but these are the articles you posted:

                      One in three young criminals is armed
                      http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2000/sep/03/ukguns.tonythompson
                      One in three criminals under the age of 25 owns or has access to a firearm, the Government's researchers have discovered.

                      Gun crime rockets to record high
                      http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2000/dec/31/ukcrime.ukguns
                      Arms were used 15,000 times to commit offences this year alone. Tony Thompson investigates.

                      Criminal gun use 'rose 40% after ban'
                      http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2001/jul/16/ukguns1
                      A pro-gun lobby group has attacked the government over laws that made handgun ownership illegal, after a study it commissioned found that the criminal use of handguns went up by 40% in the two years after the weapons were banned.


                      Published 2000, 2000, and 2001.
                      Yup - my bad. when I searched them, they all showed up as 2015. Not sure why...

                      The statistics I posted cover a 15-year period between 1996 and 2011 and show an overall drop in gun deaths and homicides in that time period (the ban on handguns was enacted in 1996). The sharpest drop occurred directly after 1996. I think it's hard to say that gun crime was worse after the ban, despite what some UK-based nutjob interest groups would want everyone else to believe.
                      They have (as pointed out) decreased in the US as well, without a ban. Compare pre and post ban UK, compare it to drops in US crime rates in the same period, determine whether the differences fall within the standard deviation, then determine who deserves the title "nutjob."

                      Until somebody provides REAL information, the jury on who is blowing smoke (and deserves the derogatory term "nutjob") and who isn't will remain out.
                      Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

                      Comment

                        #86
                        Re: Guns

                        I'll have to agree with you there. I just wanted to challenge the idea that the UK ban was not successful. Not that the same policy could be applicable to the US.

                        Anyway, I'm going to back out of this thread, because this is not really the place for debate. It is a thread for gun collectors in the Hobbies section, and their thread has been derailed. On my part, I am sorry for contributing to that derailment.

                        Comment

                          #87
                          Re: Guns

                          Load the mains with grapeshot and chains ... Prepare to give 'er a broadside as she comes about me hearties ...

                          - - - Updated - - -

                          I want this ... Even if I have to make one ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbvbLCs7iJ4
                          I won't be wronged. I won't be insulted. I won't be laid a-hand on. I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same from them ... John Bernard Books


                          Indian Chief 'Two Eagles' was asked by a white government official; "You have observed the white man for 90 years. You've seen his wars and his technological advances. You've seen his progress, and the damage he's done."

                          The Chief nodded in agreement.

                          The official continued; "Considering all these events, in your opinion, where did the white man go wrong?"

                          The Chief stared at the government official for over a minute and then calmly replied.. "When white man find land, Indians running it, no taxes, no debt, plenty buffalo, plenty beaver, clean water. Women did all the work, Medicine Man free. Indian man spend all day hunting and fishing; all night having sex."

                          Then the chief leaned back and smiled; "Only white man dumb enough to think he could improve system like that."
                          ​



                          Comment

                            #88
                            Re: Guns

                            looks like Obama might use executive order to bypass the system to enact laws by ballot because he knows it would not fly ... he is just using this latest shooting to further his agenda ... http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015...ntcmp=obinsite
                            I won't be wronged. I won't be insulted. I won't be laid a-hand on. I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same from them ... John Bernard Books


                            Indian Chief 'Two Eagles' was asked by a white government official; "You have observed the white man for 90 years. You've seen his wars and his technological advances. You've seen his progress, and the damage he's done."

                            The Chief nodded in agreement.

                            The official continued; "Considering all these events, in your opinion, where did the white man go wrong?"

                            The Chief stared at the government official for over a minute and then calmly replied.. "When white man find land, Indians running it, no taxes, no debt, plenty buffalo, plenty beaver, clean water. Women did all the work, Medicine Man free. Indian man spend all day hunting and fishing; all night having sex."

                            Then the chief leaned back and smiled; "Only white man dumb enough to think he could improve system like that."
                            ​



                            Comment

                              #89
                              Re: Guns

                              Originally posted by magusphredde View Post
                              looks like Obama might use executive order to bypass the system to enact laws by ballot because he knows it would not fly ... he is just using this latest shooting to further his agenda ... http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015...ntcmp=obinsite
                              It's about time. The man has done enough to expand my ability to carry a gun, it's about time he did something that makes some sense. As a responsible gun owner I applaud the opportunity to be responsible. IMO anyone that doesn't support background checks isn't someone that should have a gun in the first place.

                              And the Constitutional line is such BS....we restrict Constitutional rights all the time---you can't yell fire in a crowded room or bomb in an airport and say "oh, I'm just exercising my 1st amendment right" as a get out of jail card. And come on, anyone that supports voter ID laws and doesn't support universal background checks is a hypocrite--let's ID people over imaginary fraud for something that barely matters on an individual but pitch a toddler hissy fit over making sure one isn't a felon before legally selling them something that can be used to kill people in large numbers?!? The mental gymnastics that takes is frightening.

                              Let's face it, last week an 11 shot an 8 year old little girl because she wouldn't let him see her puppy. Last year, a toddler blew his face away. A kid kills a sibling thinking a gun is unloaded. Kids walk into schools with their parents guns and shoot them up. There is a problem with our love of guns in this country. I'm willing to bet most of those parents would have said they were law abiding, contentious fire arm owners before the day their babies became killers (and research supports this).

                              And while universal background checks and safe storage laws won't eliminate the problem, if it can even put a dent in it, I'm patriotic enough to give it a go. At least it's not sticking my head in the sand while the NRA pulls the strings to hundreds of lawmakers.
                              Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
                              sigpic

                              Comment

                                #90
                                Re: Guns

                                As gun owner, I support background checks.

                                There are people who have legal guns that scare me because they are dangerous as all shit.

                                A guy near here shot a person three years in a row while hunting. Please take his gun away, somebody, and get him into AA!

                                And I am not an NRA member because I think they do more harm than good.
                                Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

                                Comment

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