Questions about Islam (Ask Away!)

[Dumuzi]

Re: Questions about Islam (Ask Away!)

I went to service today at the local masjed to observe. I have two questions:

Oh, that must have been the Friday prayer! (think of it as Sunday, when Christians go to Church)

The imam gave a speech entirely in Arabic, and then repeated it (I think, because obviously I didn't understand the first half, but that's the impression I got), but the second half contained probably around 40% Arabic, too (usually involving quotes from the Qu'ran). Is speaking at least SOME Arabic considered obligatory?

First, remember that I live in a country who's official language is Arabic, so all the speech is in Arabic over here. However, when I went abroad I noticed they do what you just described in the mosque I prayed at. First they give the speech in Arabic, and then they repeat it in the native language of the country. However, when I sometimes look up speeches online, I find lots of them are just in English, since that's the language everyone in the audience would understand.

The point of the speech is to deliver a message to the audience, so it's crucial to use a language everyone would understand. Assuming everyone can speak Arabic, when you live in a non Arab country is a huge mistake.

Of course it's important for Muslims to learn Arabic because it helps understanding the religion and the Qur'an, but for the very least you need to understand some short passages or else you wouldn't be able to do your daily Salah, (prayer).

Secondly, my friend and I were the only females in the building with the exception of about six young girls and five other women, but there were about a hundred men there. Did we happen to come on a day with some special significance for men? I wondered if maybe there was a separate service for the women because the five praying women stayed not just in the back of the room but instead were in a hallway off to the side (facing the glowing EXIT sign in the dark, which seemed awfully lonely compared to the grand open room the men were in... I was surprised that they chose to be so separate)...
Why might there be so few women present?

The Friday prayer is an obligation for men to attend, while it is optional for women. Because of that, the number of men is always much higher than the number of women. However, here's what I think is going on over there.

It must be much harder over there to be able to build mosques and make them as spacious as you would want. So I'm assuming they get packed by Muslim men, and they end up neglecting the women's section, unfortunately, because their number is usually fewer. I've heard this complaint a lot from over there.

I'd go there again when it isn't Friday at noon. Because that's the busiest time of the week. Even over here, when I go late to the mosque I end up praying outside on the street, because the mosques are filled. I have to take a rug with me or else I pray on the concrete.

[Siloh]

Re: Questions about Islam (Ask Away!)

Hi Dumuzi,

I've absolutely loved reading through this thread. With "Ask a..." threads, I really try to read the whole thing before asking any questions, but I'm having a helluvah time digging through all of this, as it seems to be a particularly long thread. So, please forgive me, because I'd really like to ask this question, and I'm going to quote one of your very old posts (page 18), which is fresh to me.

This is an upsetting question for me, and maybe it is for you, but I think asking is the only way for me to gain any understanding at all, particularly because I really enjoy learning about Islam and you are a very patient source.

I am willing to die for really only one vaguely religious cause, because it is a matter, to me, of both religious freedom and politics. Also, like many causes embroiled in religion, I cannot (for the life of me!) understand the other side's feelings.

So yes, we do take those rules seriously and we accept them. Even those rules that may seem too violent, they are always presented as half truths, and the true purpose of them is often distorted. And the saddest thing in my opinion is when people sum up the whole law into just one act of punishment and forget everything else about that law.

They forget how under it everyone is treated justly and equally. And how under it the non Muslim's life, property, honor and places of worship are protected by the state.

Here is your quote.

Here is my question:

Ready?
Israel.
Before the six-day war in 1967, East Jerusalem was under Muslim control. Of course, the Abrahamic faiths all treasure this little stamp of land, because lots of important things happened there.

When East Jerusalem was under Muslim control, all non-Muslims were barred from entering. Que latisma. Every day Jews pray toward the Kotel. Even as someone who is really iffy about deities, when I laid my hand upon the rock toward which I'd prayed my whole life, it was powerful, almost relieving.

When the Israelis took over the Old City, they put each faith in charge of its own paramount relic. Therefore, we have the Kotel run by Jews, the Dome of the Holy Rock is run by Muslims, and whatever the heck interests Christians is presumably being run by Christians.

Non-Muslims are not permitted to see the Dome of the Holy Rock. In fact, there were IDF soldiers providing security for the Muslim management when I went, in case it came under threat. Israel endorses the Muslims' rights to manage their holy site however they feel fit, even though this site is of much significance to other religions.

One of the more troubling issues concerning land in Israel is that Hamas demands the Israelis return East Jerusalem. This is a big problem. The last time East Jerusalem was outside Israeli power, Jews were forbidden from their most holy city. With the Israelis in control of the Old City, each faith has been granted power over certain sites, reinforced by IDF protection.

Now, Hamas, I understand, is a terrorist group. I'm not using them as representatives of Islam. That would be like holding up Yitzhak Rabin's assassin as the leader of the Jews. Not okay.

Unfortunately, Hamas has a great amount of governmental-type authority in the Gaza Strip, and they have pushed to become the spokespeople of the Palestinians who happen to live in that tiny region specifically. So I'm definitely not trying to claim that Hamas is representative here.

However. As a group that has very vehemently claimed to be authoritative in matters of Islam and the Palestinian community (I know how untrue the latter usually is, so I'm not putting a bunch of stock in the former), how is it they cannot abide by the way East Jerusalem is currently being dealt with? Many people's religious freedoms are put at risk were Israel to comply and "give back" East Jerusalem, not to mention I think those practicing Muslims are given the best protection possible through the aid provided by the IDF.

Okay, boiled down, what's their beef? Can you figure it out? I have no basis through which to comprehend the desire to own the Old City in light of how it is being managed currently, particularly since the Qua'ran is down with that good religious freedom stuff.

Also, what is it with the no non-Muslims at the Dome of the Holy Rock? Is that religious, cultural, political, or some mesh of those items? mean, when I say I'd die for this cause, I mean I support how Israel has chosen to handle their power over East Jerusalem, and I would lay down my soul to defend practitioners' rights against any threat, just like those IDF soldiers stand outside the DHR and guard it, even against their own families. I am just curious about why this is so, if you have some thoughts.

My framing of these questions is extensive because this is my frame. If you have a different frame you'd like to supply or apply, please do so.

This is about me trying to understand the only fear I have of something vaguely related to Islam. I am worried that one day I will have to go and fight for the religious rights of all in East Jerusalem one day, because it will be threatened by a group that identifies itself as a Muslim group. I saw your quote about protecting the freedoms of non-Muslims, and now I am confused as to why this is an issue at all.

My general assumption is that it is as PM Rabin's assassination. A fanatic Jew gunned down a man who brought hope to Israel and its neighbors, and the Jews cried and continue to lament this act of zealotry every year. This, we know, was no missionary of God but a man misguided to do violence.

Thank you for your patience.

[Raphaeline]

Re: Questions about Islam (Ask Away!)

First, remember that I live in a country who's official language is Arabic, so all the speech is in Arabic over here. However, when I went abroad I noticed they do what you just described in the mosque I prayed at. First they give the speech in Arabic, and then they repeat it in the native language of the country. However, when I sometimes look up speeches online, I find lots of them are just in English, since that's the language everyone in the audience would understand.

The point of the speech is to deliver a message to the audience, so it's crucial to use a language everyone would understand. Assuming everyone can speak Arabic, when you live in a non Arab country is a huge mistake.

Of course it's important for Muslims to learn Arabic because it helps understanding the religion and the Qur'an, but for the very least you need to understand some short passages or else you wouldn't be able to do your daily Salah, (prayer).

I wasn't sure how much of the fact that the speech was given in Arabic was practical and how much was spiritual - I mean, if it was only done as a means to make sure everyone understood, or whether the language itself is considered sacred. Obviously it might be difficult for you to answer since you don't live in the place I'm referring to!

Your answer makes me wonder something else, too... Is it necessary to recite the prayer in Arabic?

The Friday prayer is an obligation for men to attend, while it is optional for women. Because of that, the number of men is always much higher than the number of women. However, here's what I think is going on over there.

It must be much harder over there to be able to build mosques and make them as spacious as you would want. So I'm assuming they get packed by Muslim men, and they end up neglecting the women's section, unfortunately, because their number is usually fewer. I've heard this complaint a lot from over there.

I'd go there again when it isn't Friday at noon. Because that's the busiest time of the week. Even over here, when I go late to the mosque I end up praying outside on the street, because the mosques are filled. I have to take a rug with me or else I pray on the concrete.

You know, when I was in there, I was truly disappointed in how small it was. I was there Thursday as well, when it was empty, and was given a tour by the imam and a woman from Bosnia. Over half of their congregation is Bosnian and there are 27 other nations represented there - there are 280 in their congregation. And the place was so small, I thought... How do they find room for them all?! So that really explains it - the women don't go to make room for the men.

Boy, I wish I'd known that! I took one step into the room where everyone was worshiping and suddenly realized I was the only female in the room. I turned right around and exited before anyone saw me... That's when I noticed the three or four women sitting in the hallway and just sat down there instead.

Oh, and one more question. When we asked Thursday what time we should come Friday, everyone said service started at noon. So we showed up at 12PM and there was no one there. We made a call and asked where everyone was, and the reply was, "Oh, when they say 'noon' they mean 1!" We tried coming up with a satisfactory answer as to why that might be and couldn't figure it out!

Oh, that must have been the Friday prayer! (think of it as Sunday, when Christians go to Church)

I remember one Friday afternoon months ago when my mother drove past the mosque on the way to the grocery. She said, "Wow, there sure are a lot of people there for a Friday."

[Medusa]

Re: Questions about Islam (Ask Away!)

Rafe, I'm going to go visit my local one and report back on size etc. Of course I can't go on a Friday when I work. So I'll see the place on another day. Just wanting to see the differences between countries...and states! California it will be more Malaysian Muslims. At least in my area.

[thalassa]

Re: Questions about Islam (Ask Away!)

Rafe, maybe because of daylight savings time?

Like...spring forward, what *should* be noon becomes 1?

[Medusa]

Re: Questions about Islam (Ask Away!)

Not to overthrow Dumuzi's thread...
*pushes him over.

I contacted my local mosque and the man who answered my e-mail will be forwarding it to a woman who can help me set up a tour of the place etc. This is the one I'll be going to. http://www.icsgv.com/
This place has it going on!

[Raphaeline]

Re: Questions about Islam (Ask Away!)

Rafe, maybe because of daylight savings time?

Like...spring forward, what *should* be noon becomes 1?

Oh, that kills me. My friend and I actually mentioned it could be of daylights savings time, but we somehow managed to get it backward. Like, we were thinking it would be 11 instead.

D'oh.

[Corvus]

Re: Questions about Islam (Ask Away!)

I recently had to do a paper on the persecution of the Jewish people and naturally I came across a lot of stories about Arab persecution of Jews. Every source I found made a clear point that all non-Muslims are treated the same way (actually the word dhimmi was used, which one site said meant nonbeliever?). Then there was lists of different restrictions and things that non-Muslims had to do under Muslim rulers. Like they're not allowed to own horses, have to wear dark robes or colored badges, not allowed to mourn in the presence of a Muslim, not practice their religion in public, and a head tax to be paid. I'm just wondering really what this is all about, the tax I've read is in accordance with the Qu'ran but what's with all the rest? I don't have my notes anymore (had to turn those in with my report) so I know there's more I meant to ask about. I really feel my paper was extremely biased against Muslims with the sources I had.

[Siloh]

Re: Questions about Islam (Ask Away!)

I recently had to do a paper on the persecution of the Jewish people and naturally I came across a lot of stories about Arab persecution of Jews. Every source I found made a clear point that all non-Muslims are treated the same way (actually the word dhimmi was used, which one site said meant nonbeliever?). Then there was lists of different restrictions and things that non-Muslims had to do under Muslim rulers. Like they're not allowed to own horses, have to wear dark robes or colored badges, not allowed to mourn in the presence of a Muslim, not practice their religion in public, and a head tax to be paid. I'm just wondering really what this is all about, the tax I've read is in accordance with the Qu'ran but what's with all the rest? I don't have my notes anymore (had to turn those in with my report) so I know there's more I meant to ask about. I really feel my paper was extremely biased against Muslims with the sources I had.

Corvus, you very well may have answered my question concerning the Dome of the Holy Rock for me.

[Dumuzi]

Re: Questions about Islam (Ask Away!)

Hi Dumuzi

Hey Siloh!

Thank you for taking the time to read my previous replies, but trust me, I don't expect anyone to read all of that! I really don't mind answering questions, so don't hesitate or worry about asking anything you want.

As for your question, I should first point out that this thread is about the religion of Islam. I don't like to answer political questions in here. Though I can really see the amount of effort and time you put to make your post, so I will try to answer it to the best of my abilities. But if you want to discuss the Palestinian-Israeli conflict in more detail, perhaps it is better to do so in another thread.

So here we go!

First you have to understand this isn't a religious issue for us, at least not in the same sense it is for the other side. What I mean is that it has less to do with, which side is Muslim and which side isn't. And more about, which side is oppressed and which one is committing the oppression and persecution. Not all Palestinians are Muslim by the way.

I was against the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait, I'm against the Syrian government and I'm even against the current Egyptian government and they all happen to be Muslim. I'm against the American invasion of Iraq and they are mostly Christian and I'm also against the Israeli government and they are Jewish. So I couldn't care less about the religion of the oppressor. I am against them because of their oppression, not their religion.

Secondly, I have to disagree with some of the points you have raised. It seems that people over there are misinformed about what is really going on over there in Israel. For example, the most important religious site over there for Muslims is not the Dome of the Holy Rock, it is Al Aqsa Mosque. It's not true that the IDF protects Muslims there. Muslims are discriminated against regularly there and often restrictions are placed on males under 50 years old. About 10 days ago Soldiers and settlers broke into Al Aqsa Mosque.

But all of that is a secondary issue in my opinion. It's the salt they put in a wound already there. It's not that Palestinians want to worship and the Israeli government is preventing them. It's way beyond that. Palestinians want to live and raise families but the Israeli government keeps destroying their homes and killing their children.

Just a quick example, that shows you this isn't about mosques, Palestinians often have a hard time finding water to drink because of Israel. According to a UN report, Israel is actively supporting the theft of Palestinian water.

Israel have also threatened to tear down solar panels and wind turbines in Palestinian villages.

Now, Hamas, I understand, is a terrorist group.

I want you to think about this for a second. List the reasons you think Hamas is a terrorist group. Now think about it, do the same reasons apply to the Israeli government?

Since September 2000, 124 Israeli children have been killed. Something that I am totally against. But do you know how many Palestinian children were killed by Israel in the same time frame? 1463.

In the same time frame 9,226 Israelis have been injured. While 45,041 Palestinians have been injured. Source

ZERO Israeli homes have been destroyed since 1967, while at least 24,813 houses have been demolished in the West Bank, East Jerusalem and Gaza since 1967. Source

It seems to me the media over there is extremely biased against Palestine. And just to show you this isn't a matter of me being against Israel because of being Muslim, the whole world tried to issue sanctions against Israel because of the war crimes and crimes against humanity it committed. But every time we try to do that, the US veto's it. Actually, Israel has cut working relations with the UN Human Rights Council.

I am willing to die for really only one vaguely religious cause, because it is a matter, to me, of both religious freedom and politics.

I don't want to make this reply any longer than it already is. But I humbly ask you to investigate this matter in more detail. I believe it is the duty of all of us to fight for the rights of the oppressed. I am against the killing of any innocent human being. On both sides. But it seems to me that the American government doesn't care as much when it is Palestinian children being killed. If you want to die for something, why not for the right of Palestinians to live like decent human beings, instead of supporting a government that is almost identical to the apartheid government of South Africa.

I could provide you with even more sources, but I'm sure you are bored by now. I'll just leave you with this video showing you how women and children suffer at check points by the hands of Israeli soldiers:

Part 1

Part 2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LIBDUChaizQ&feature=player_embedded

[anunitu]

Re: Questions about Islam (Ask Away!)

I think it is important to also understand that not everything that happens in the Middle East is about religion. We see the outward conflict only in terms of religious difference mostly from the media. But,there is always what goes on beneath the surface and this may have more to do with resources and power than any religious differences. Sometimes religion is used to cover the real reasons for killing and suffering of innocent people. In the clash for power,it seems it is always these innocent
people that are caught in the middle and suffer the most damage.

[Dumuzi]

Re: Questions about Islam (Ask Away!)

I wasn't sure how much of the fact that the speech was given in Arabic was practical and how much was spiritual - I mean, if it was only done as a means to make sure everyone understood, or whether the language itself is considered sacred. Obviously it might be difficult for you to answer since you don't live in the place I'm referring to!

Your answer makes me wonder something else, too... Is it necessary to recite the prayer in Arabic?

The speech part has to be in a language everyone understands. Usually the Imam chooses a topic that is relevant to the community. I'd imagine the problems a Muslim faces in America are not the same as a Muslim living in Egypt, and so on.

As for the prayer itself, yes, it has to be in Arabic. Since we recite the Qur'an during these prayers so they are in Arabic. Personally, I find this great because it means I can go into a mosque anywhere in the world and we'd be all praying in the same way!

Problem is that the English word prayer can actually be referring to three different things in Islam. There's Salah like the 5 daily prayers. And then there's Du'a' which roughly means to call upon, like a supplication. This prayer is in any language that you want, it doesn't have to be spoken by the tongue. So while performing Salah (which has lots of Arabic parts) you can do Du'a', especially when we are bowing down or prostrating, where you can say or ask for whatever you want. You can and you're encouraged to do it anytime of the day. Hope this made sense!

Boy, I wish I'd known that! I took one step into the room where everyone was worshiping and suddenly realized I was the only female in the room. I turned right around and exited before anyone saw me...

Oh, no! Thank god no one saw you, or else we'd have to stone you! hehe just kidding!

Oh, and one more question. When we asked Thursday what time we should come Friday, everyone said service started at noon. So we showed up at 12PM and there was no one there. We made a call and asked where everyone was, and the reply was, "Oh, when they say 'noon' they mean 1!" We tried coming up with a satisfactory answer as to why that might be and couldn't figure it out!

Oh, the 5 daily prayers depend on the movement of the sun. So when we say the noon prayer it is the time of the day when the sun is at the highest point in the sky and a little after that. It's when the sun has crossed the celestial meridian (true noon), exactly halfway between sunrise and sunset.

So it changes everyday. Usually you can look up the times of the prayers of your city online.

[Raphaeline]

Re: Questions about Islam (Ask Away!)

Very cool. Thanks for the responses!

[Siloh]

Re: Questions about Islam (Ask Away!)

Hey Siloh!

Thank you for taking the time to read my previous replies, but trust me, I don't expect anyone to read all of that! I really don't mind answering questions, so don't hesitate or worry about asking anything you want.

As for your question, I should first point out that this thread is about the religion of Islam. I don't like to answer political questions in here. Though I can really see the amount of effort and time you put to make your post, so I will try to answer it to the best of my abilities. But if you want to discuss the Palestinian-Israeli conflict in more detail, perhaps it is better to do so in another thread.

So here we go!

First you have to understand this isn't a religious issue for us, at least not in the same sense it is for the other side. What I mean is that it has less to do with, which side is Muslim and which side isn't. And more about, which side is oppressed and which one is committing the oppression and persecution. Not all Palestinians are Muslim by the way.

I was against the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait, I'm against the Syrian government and I'm even against the current Egyptian government and they all happen to be Muslim. I'm against the American invasion of Iraq and they are mostly Christian and I'm also against the Israeli government and they are Jewish. So I couldn't care less about the religion of the oppressor. I am against them because of their oppression, not their religion.

Secondly, I have to disagree with some of the points you have raised. It seems that people over there are misinformed about what is really going on over there in Israel. For example, the most important religious site over there for Muslims is not the Dome of the Holy Rock, it is Al Aqsa Mosque. It's not true that the IDF protects Muslims there. Muslims are discriminated against regularly there and often restrictions are placed on males under 50 years old. About 10 days ago Soldiers and settlers broke into Al Aqsa Mosque.

But all of that is a secondary issue in my opinion. It's the salt they put in a wound already there. It's not that Palestinians want to worship and the Israeli government is preventing them. It's way beyond that. Palestinians want to live and raise families but the Israeli government keeps destroying their homes and killing their children.

Just a quick example, that shows you this isn't about mosques, Palestinians often have a hard time finding water to drink because of Israel. According to a UN report, Israel is actively supporting the theft of Palestinian water.

Israel have also threatened to tear down solar panels and wind turbines in Palestinian villages.



I want you to think about this for a second. List the reasons you think Hamas is a terrorist group. Now think about it, do the same reasons apply to the Israeli government?

Since September 2000, 124 Israeli children have been killed. Something that I am totally against. But do you know how many Palestinian children were killed by Israel in the same time frame? 1463.

In the same time frame 9,226 Israelis have been injured. While 45,041 Palestinians have been injured. Source

ZERO Israeli homes have been destroyed since 1967, while at least 24,813 houses have been demolished in the West Bank, East Jerusalem and Gaza since 1967. Source

It seems to me the media over there is extremely biased against Palestine. And just to show you this isn't a matter of me being against Israel because of being Muslim, the whole world tried to issue sanctions against Israel because of the war crimes and crimes against humanity it committed. But every time we try to do that, the US veto's it. Actually, Israel has cut working relations with the UN Human Rights Council.



I don't want to make this reply any longer than it already is. But I humbly ask you to investigate this matter in more detail. I believe it is the duty of all of us to fight for the rights of the oppressed. I am against the killing of any innocent human being. On both sides. But it seems to me that the American government doesn't care as much when it is Palestinian children being killed. If you want to die for something, why not for the right of Palestinians to live like decent human beings, instead of supporting a government that is almost identical to the apartheid government of South Africa.

I could provide you with even more sources, but I'm sure you are bored by now. I'll just leave you with this video showing you how women and children suffer at check points by the hands of Israeli soldiers:

Part 1

Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LIBDU...layer_embedded

So... Islam basically has nothing to do with the restrictions at the DHR?

I'd like to thank you for your reply before pursuing these sources. I disagree with some points, like that IDF soldiers do not stand outside of the Dome of the Holy Rock, because I saw them there.

In response to Hamas-as-terrorists... I think that any group who forces participation upon civilians in the form of hiding weapons bases in the most densely populated areas possible (where, yes, children are exposed to air strikes by the IDF) or bribes (the IDF started bombing properties specifically awarded to martyrs' families, probably contributing greatly to destruction of housing) is a terrorist group. Also, my friend was a photographer for the IDF and personally witnessed Hamas staging photos of "dead" people who would lay down for the picture and then get back up. However, terrorist Jews abounded, definitely, while the British had control of Israel, and the IDF itself certainly uses questionable methods to complete their agenda, an agenda I can't say I always support!

BUT, these responses are silly anyway, because I'm about peaceful resolution, as long as peaceful resolution does NOT mean giving up access to the Kotel or, really, access of any religious group to their holy sites.

Although, from my perspective, the media here is mostly anti-Israel. But that's my perspective.

I'm really rather relieved to hear that Islam is not a big part of the East Jerusalem feud. Really, I just want open access to the Old City and for my friends to not have to die young in the IDF, or coffee shops, or schools, which is a personal matter of grief, and I resent Israel for those losses as much or more than their killers.

Sorry for the misuse of the thread, but thanks for the discourse. I hope you realize, though I will not further elaborate this other than to say, I harbor zero ill will toward the Palestinians. And I am thinking of making an ask-a-Zionist thread, but I'm more about defending the citizens forced to battle than the Knesset, which is how most Israeli youth seem to feel today, as well. Stroll through Tel Aviv, and you'll see countless works of public art condemning the Israeli government for screwing over its children among other victims.

Moving on...

Since you've excused me from my duty to read the whole thread in search of possible answers to my question

Can you explain the infallibility of the Qur'an? How has it been determined to be infallible?

Now, I kind of think this is a stupid question, so if you think so, too, I'm not offended one bit.

I saw in a (much) earlier post of yours that the Qur'an came after the Torah and the Bible? Am I getting that right? And that these texts were the man-written texts that Islam sees as somewhere between valid divine inspiration and misguided mortal thought? Well, I've just been thinking about how wine-obsessed the Torah and Bible are, but alcohol is a Muslim no-no. Where did this custom come in? Is it just about purity of body and mind? Is the wine-obsession in the Torah and the Bible considered part of the mortal errors in those texts?

Also, you really rock for being so patient with me. Because, you know, I poked a potential beehive, and I actually thought you were going to deliberately ignore/block me for my insolence, which I would have also understood.

[Stoph]

Re: Questions about Islam (Ask Away!)

Hey, just wanna share this on the topic of Isreal/Palestine. ive been wondering for years about the whole thing and this explained things very clearly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3bxj1uvDXU