Ask a Pro Life Pagan

[Siloh]

Re: Ask a Pro Life Pagan

Edit:
I'm really sorry. Somehow I didn't see that you generally touched on this issue with Dez. If you have more to say related to the questions I've raised than you've stated previously, please extrapolate. But I'm really sorry if you feel I just asked you to repeat yourself. I have no idea how half that post escaped my attention.

[Raphaeline]

Re: Ask a Pro Life Pagan

I'm not going to speak for Corbin, Rafe, but if I understand right based on the past couple of pages, his ideal is to make it so that all medical care and alternatives are affordable and widely available, meaning that adoptions only are ever needed as a last resort, usually for medical reasons.

An example of this would be Sweden, IMO. All forms of abortion are legal there, but because medical care is so affordable, and quality of life is so good, they are much more rare then in America.

I understood what he was saying, but I'm talking about BEFORE the birth. I'm not talking about instances wherein a woman doesn't want to keep the child after it's born, but rather when she doesn't want to be pregnant or give birth at all. What happens after the birth is excluded from my question, if that helps make it clearer...

I was very uncomfortable during my pregnancies, and I WANTED my children. I loved them when they were in the womb. But to a woman who doesn't want to be a mother in any form of the word... I can't imagine what it would feel like to have my body used in that way without any say in the matter, when there is a safe way to end the process.

I hate to get off track, but I'm noticing some interesting things concerning my own opinion here. I just finished saying my religious views are closely tied to my role as a mother, emotionally and biologically, so it seems like I would be pro-life. But I also respect the individuals rights - a woman should not be forced by the people around her to carry and birth a child if she doesn't want to. I suppose from a spiritual standpoint, forcing someone to be a mother (even if it's just biologically) seems blasphemous. It's something sacred to me and shouldn't be treated like a punishment. I don't know... I'm thinking out loud at this point... just something for me to ponder, I suppose.

[Medusa]

Re: Ask a Pro Life Pagan

Reproduction should not be a govt mandate.
A good all around prevention program including ALL forms of contraception including NO SEX should be offered. And a good all around program to deal with unwanted pregnancies should also be provided.

Both with voluntary participation.

And if you are too dumb to take advantage of either...tough shit retard.

[thalassa]

Re: Ask a Pro Life Pagan

Countries in which abortion is widely available have some of the lowest numbers of abortions...largely because the more available abortion is, the more available everything up to abortion tends to be as well. Countries where abortion is restricted or illegal have some of the highest numbers of abortion for the opposite reason--and have more women dying from DIY abortions. (there's an interesting article from 2007, partially interesting because the title and first paragraph aren't backed up by the rest of the article at all...and partially for the actual information in the article, specifically the fifth from the last paragraph)

^just an observation, sort of off topic maybe


I guess the biggest thing I have with a pro-life stance that I wonder about is what makes you think that life starts at egg+sperm? Maybe its the massive amounts of biology classes, but I really just *don't get this* at all.

And (though I suspect that you can't answer this Corbin, because it doesn't seem to be part of your opinion) what makes someone think that they have the right to legislate the matter against the personal rights of an individual--their body and their health and their well-being, when the matter of when life starts is purely a personal opinion?

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Ask a Pro Life Pagan

I was very uncomfortable during my pregnancies, and I WANTED my children. I loved them when they were in the womb. But to a woman who doesn't want to be a mother in any form of the word... I can't imagine what it would feel like to have my body used in that way without any say in the matter, when there is a safe way to end the process.

Yes, that would be science fiction type horrible. That's why I'm against it.

---------- Post added at 09:22 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:59 AM ----------

I guess the biggest thing I have with a pro-life stance that I wonder about is what makes you think that life starts at egg+sperm? Maybe its the massive amounts of biology classes, but I really just *don't get this* at all.

LOL - maybe it's the massive number of biology classes I didn't have that are the problem. I missed the one where "human life" was defined.

A fetus seems to be alive. At least, it's made of living tissue. But if you ask "does that make it human?" I can't answer. Unless there is a definition of "human life" which has real criterion having to do with the quality of "human-ness" (as opposed to say, the current state of fetal medicine which affects viability) which we can agree to, the call as to when "human life" begins will have to be a personal one. My personal preference when dealing with human life is to be overly careful, so, until someting better comes along, I'll go with human life begins at conception.

And (though I suspect that you can't answer this Corbin, because it doesn't seem to be part of your opinion) what makes someone think that they have the right to legislate the matter against the personal rights of an individual--their body and their health and their well-being, when the matter of when life starts is purely a personal opinion?

Well, I see you've anticipated the answer to your first question...

It's easy to understand, though. Beginning with the assumption that a fetus is human, then all the legal protections that belong to a human belong to a fetus. Since whether a fetus is "human" or not is a matter of opinion, why not just let individuals decide? Because we don't allow people to make life and death choices for other humans based on whether they believe that someone is human or not.

For instance, nobody woud propose that American Nazis have a right to kill Jews if the Nazis don't believe them to be human...

But you are right. I don't hold this position and while I will explain it, I won't defend it.

[Jembru]

Re: Ask a Pro Life Pagan

Reproduction should not be a govt mandate.
A good all around prevention program including ALL forms of contraception including NO SEX should be offered. And a good all around program to deal with unwanted pregnancies should also be provided.

Both with voluntary participation.

And if you are too dumb to take advantage of either...tough shit retard.

but then we end up in a situation of Selection of the Un-fittest'. Which, come to think of it, already happens on some estates around here. We'll end up eventually with a smaller population, but lower average IQ, as the dumbasses constinue to bonk like rabbits with just about anyone dumb enough to get that close.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Ask a Pro Life Pagan

...the dumbasses constinue to bonk like rabbits with just about anyone dumb enough to get that close.

Yeah. You don't want a bunch of dumb asses reproducing.

Perhaps we could try to maintain the level we've been operating at in this potentially controversial thread?

[Raphaeline]

Re: Ask a Pro Life Pagan

Yes, that would be science fiction type horrible. That's why I'm against it.[COLOR="Silver"]

I'm confused. You've said that you would like to see abortion illegal while also making pregnancy prevention methods more easily accessible. But my question concerns the women who do not want to be mothers and who are already using those methods but became pregnant despite the odds. What could be done to solve THAT problem? Obviously an answer would be for them not to have sex in the first place - the other part of my question was whether you think that could be realistically accepted.
I have no idea if you've answered that and I just missed it...

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Ask a Pro Life Pagan

I'm confused. You've said that you would like to see abortion illegal while also making pregnancy prevention methods more easily accessible. But my question concerns the women who do not want to be mothers and who are already using those methods but became pregnant despite the odds. What could be done to solve THAT problem? Obviously an answer would be for them not to have sex in the first place - the other part of my question was whether you think that could be realistically accepted.
I have no idea if you've answered that and I just missed it...

It's OK - you're confused because you have a picture of what a Pro Life person is like in your head, and I'm not matching it. Since clearing up misconceptions is the whole point of an "Ask me..." thread, I'm happy to do it. Here's the short version:

1. I do not like abortion, This is a gut level reaction and is not going to change, no matter what argument is presented to me. Sorry - you have your feelings, I have mine. I don't know why a person would LIKE abortion, but if somebody does, -

2. If I could REASONABLY end it right now, I would. I don't know why this would be a problem for anybody - if it wasn't necessary, there would be no reason why it would continue...

3. I can not reasonably end it by making laws against it, or restricting access. Therefore, it should remain legal (with whatever reasonable restrictions we, as a society, decide to put on it - like determining a point AFTER which elective abortions are no longer an option).

4. Although I know that abortion will always be necessary, I would like to see the number of them decrease dramatically - because options are in place which make the choice easier - like health care and a stable environment - not because of weird restrictions and backdoor politics.

5. I feel that as long as abortion is presented as THE option for social ills there is little incentive to create the kind of programs which will bring real, lasting improvements. This is why I choose to concentrate on reducing the number of abortions through social improvement, rather than by laws.

I don't see the problem - it looks like a win/win scenario to me.

[Jembru]

Re: Ask a Pro Life Pagan

But many pro-choice individuals have the same feelings, so to some of us reading this, you don't sound any more pro-life than pro choice. You seem like many of us, just to want the best for everyone. So.. why identify yourself as pro-life and risk being (albeit unfairly) judged by others? I know it personally grinds my bones to have people assume what my personal views are, based on a lable or some other image I might project to them. Wouldn't you rather just avoid this and join me on the fence?

[Siloh]

Re: Ask a Pro Life Pagan

LOL - maybe it's the massive number of biology classes I didn't have that are the problem. I missed the one where "human life" was defined.

A fetus seems to be alive. At least, it's made of living tissue. But if you ask "does that make it human?" I can't answer. Unless there is a definition of "human life" which has real criterion having to do with the quality of "human-ness" (as opposed to say, the current state of fetal medicine which affects viability) which we can agree to, the call as to when "human life" begins will have to be a personal one. My personal preference when dealing with human life is to be overly careful, so, until someting better comes along, I'll go with human life begins at conception.

But the embryonic stages basically indicate non-humanness and humanness, right? Fetuses begin to develop gills and look almost exactly identical to tadpoles early in its development. But then the human starts kicking in, and we start to look like mammals at least, then like actual humans. I mean the whole "this fetus has straight gills" thing just doesn't scream human to me.

It's easy to understand, though. Beginning with the assumption that a fetus is human, then all the legal protections that belong to a human belong to a fetus. Since whether a fetus is "human" or not is a matter of opinion, why not just let individuals decide? Because we don't allow people to make life and death choices for other humans based on whether they believe that someone is human or not.

For instance, nobody woud propose that American Nazis have a right to kill Jews if the Nazis don't believe them to be human...

Wow! Talk about upholding a standard while poking a heated issue. I don't appreciate abortion being compared to genocide in any context. There are a number of ways grieving potential mothers differ from Nazis, also a myriad of ways breathing Jews are not comparable to fetuses relying on their mother's bodies, but I'm going to guess that people can differentiate just fine on this forum and hope that Nazis and Hitler no longer appear for the sake of everybody.

I'm not the PC police, and I realize this isn't by thread, but damn, that seems totally unnecessary here.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Ask a Pro Life Pagan

But many pro-choice individuals have the same feelings, so to some of us reading this, you don't sound any more pro-life than pro choice. You seem like many of us, just to want the best for everyone.

Yes. You once suffered under the prejudice that every person who calls his/her self "Pro Life" is exactly the same as the characatures which Pro Choice people themselves have created of us.

So.. why identify yourself as pro-life and risk being (albeit unfairly) judged by others? I know it personally grinds my bones to have people assume what my personal views are, based on a lable or some other image I might project to them. Wouldn't you rather just avoid this and join me on the fence?

You mean go into the closet?

Do I need to feel like I have to? Here, a Pagan Forum?

Isn't it better to clear these things up when one can?

Heck - isn't that a big part of what we're all about here?



But the better answer is this - in my mind, I would prefer to work toward life, not accept death as the best solution. That's Pro Life. It isn't even anti- Pro Choice. It is my position, however.

What I need is a different term - "Rational Abortion Reduction"? Nah... I really like the "life" part... "Pro Life Through Reasonable Abortion Reduction"? Nobody would sit still long enough to hear that explained...

[Siloh]

Re: Ask a Pro Life Pagan

Yes. You once suffered under the prejudice that every person who calls his/her self "Pro Life" is exactly the same as the characatures which Pro Choice people themselves have created of us.

To be sure, pro-life is often termed anti-choice by its opponents, very unfitting for your goals, and my pro-choice stance has been accused as pro-abortion, which really does not represent my stance at all. I think a big problem here is that, even if people have by and large adopted the self-preferred terms for these parties respectively, they haven't internalized the message of those preferred terms and instead use the preferred term but mentally infer the message toted by the offending titles. This is truly a shame for us all.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Ask a Pro Life Pagan

But the embryonic stages basically indicate non-humanness and humanness, right? Fetuses begin to develop gills and look almost exactly identical to tadpoles early in its development. But then the human starts kicking in, and we start to look like mammals at least, then like actual humans. I mean the whole "this fetus has straight gills" thing just doesn't scream human to me.

It may not be wise to try to define "human" based on gross physical appearance.

Wow! Talk about upholding a standard while poking a heated issue. I don't appreciate abortion being compared to genocide in any context. There are a number of ways grieving potential mothers differ from Nazis, also a myriad of ways breathing Jews are not comparable to fetuses relying on their mother's bodies, but I'm going to guess that people can differentiate just fine on this forum and hope that Nazis and Hitler no longer appear for the sake of everybody.

I'm not the PC police, and I realize this isn't by thread, but damn, that seems totally unnecessary here.

I think you sat on a pointed stick.

That was an intentionally outlandish extrapolation of the consequences of allowing individuals free license to determine who is and is not human. Please go back and reread. There was no attempt to equate abortion with genocide.

[Dez]

Re: Ask a Pro Life Pagan

Let's everyone take a deep breath, ok?

So far, this thread has been primarily respectful, however, I would like to remind participants that our "Ask a _" threads are not debate sections, and all respect is expected when dealing with the OP.

This thread is based on Corbin's personal beliefs, and while he has chosen to explain those and open up a dialogue, he does not have to justify them--there is an important difference.

Please keep this polite, even if you disagree, so that no one has to put their mod/admin hat on and step in.