Do you think its right to charge to teach about neopaganism?

[orchestrion]

Re: Do you think its right to charge to teach about neopaganism?

Im saying theories in Science and Arts subjects are different things completely. I would agree that history is goin off on a tangent too.

What I would say is there is nothing wrong with charging for a book or a workshop or a talk at a public event that is being run to make money. There is no one on one relationship there that needs to be respected. Id object when a senior junior relationship or an elder and an initiate relationship is monetised. It should be a privilage for both involved and not turned into a mercinary experience by money changing hands. Lets be honest an elder is going to be someone you rely on for more then spiritual guidance. If I get hit by a bus tomorrow Ill have a man I trust at my bedside guiding me into whatever comes next. If he asked me to pay him to get me from a to b like a taxi driver I wouldnt have that relationship with him. If I get married hell be marrying me (assuming the fictional bride agrees), if I have kids hell bless them and if we have a miscarriage hell bless the baby. Imagine that trust with someone who asked for payment. Get the boat. Theres no way!

Historical studies are based on empirical fact. It's not something some guy pulls out of his ass. Cultural bias can color things incorrectly or skip over them (ie the belief pre-civil rights movement that there was no such thing as African history in any significant sense) but it's usually based in facts and there's honestly no cultural bias that would account for wanting to make Celts look bad. They find. They record. There are findings that suggest x. Historians conclude y.
The funny thing is that i totally agree with your original point but I now can't even see past the awful "history is made up so i can disregard the parts i don't like" attitude here. The likelihood that historians are withholding findings that state that 100% of all pre Christian cultures were totally out for the good of the people and not money or status when it came to religious roles is very, very slim.
Honestly it's totally a tangent but the proper response shouldn't be to continue to claim you have sources that you totally won't show us.

[JamesByrne]

Re: Do you think its right to charge to teach about neopaganism?

Uh wut? You did see the words MERCHANTS and BARTERING in there. Is that also another 'interpretation'? Hell I took it from a site about Pre Christian Ireland. Your chief area you kept referring to.

Bury me kid. I dare ya'

Yeah. I'm calling you out on your shenanigans.

Medusa Im sorry if Ive upset you but Im not getting involved in that type of thing with you or anyone else. I personally feel it damages my culture. Id like you to respect that.

Because Ive upset you and did get half way and stop ill answer this question/challenge but thats it. The link that you gave me discusses trading but was discussing the modern expression of festivals not the pre christian festivals. It refers to this a lecture from 1873, not exactly up to date and even it says on page 523 that the festivals did not involve trade in early ireland but were religious occasions. Heres the link to the out of copyright book so you can see for yourself.

http://archive.org/details/onmannerscustoms03ocuruoft

I didnt mean any offense in earlier posts I got carried away sorry.

[orchestrion]

Re: Do you think its right to charge to teach about neopaganism?

I really don't think you need to apologize for trying to uphold your end of a debate, haha. I think debate is healthy and I like discussing history. Though that might just be a personal thing.
And festivals not involving trade in early Ireland doesn't mean that they accepted no compensation at all ever. But i really don't want to push this further so i'll just drop it.

[thalassa]

Re: Do you think its right to charge to teach about neopaganism?

To be fair, Greek priests usually had careers like being a fisherman/sailor that their duties as a priest were separate from. But that's a pretty isolated case and they still got hella status out of the deal which is still compensation.

And for major temples and for some deities there was a dedicated priesthood that was supported at least in part by the community (or by their own business interests)...

Eisheth Im wary of doing that. I would be willing to do it for you in PM since youre paying for the site and Im grateful to have a site to chat on but while I like celtic neopaganism and I think it can do a lot for the practitioner psychologically, emotionally and spiritually I feel strongly that a personal interest in history, cultures, language, music and so on should be appreciated seperately from neopaganism.

If you make an utterly out-there intellectual claim (one, I might add that does very little for disabusing your own historical and cultural bias) that is pretty much against even the most basic of available information and that is counter-intuitive to human societies and human behavior in general, and even if it *did* happen it was one of those little exceptions that pop up from time to time...you better be able and willing to back it up when called on it in the same manner of which you made the claim in the first place, or your entire supposition and argument is completely invalid, whether it might be factually correct or not. And then judging an entire continuum of religions and practices from a number of global cultures and historical periods and developments on the basis of what one historical religion and culture in a specific period of time may or may not have done...that's just sort of bad form in general.

__________________________________________________ _____________________________


On the idea of payment in general:

A pig, horse, chicken, etc for services rendered is payment. Fixing someone's roof for services rendered is payment. Status for services rendered is payment. A place to live for services rendered is payment. Helping bring in someone's crops or shooting them a deer for services rendered is payment. Power for services rendered is payment. Any of these things to provide for someone in the hopes of availing their services at a later date when they might be needed is payment.

In modern society, money generally takes the place of all of those things...because ours is an economy based upon money.

If it hurts your feelings or insults your sense of integrity to see people charging for their time, effort, energy and money invested to teach a class or hold a workshop...then don't pay money for those things.

If you find value in what someone is teaching and find the price of attending said class, workshop, etc to be a worthy investment of your time, effort, energy and money...then go for it.

But when you expect something for nothing, you usually get what you paid for.

Or, this:

In the case of the people I mentioned (Feri Tradition), the cost of their classes (for training and initiation) is approximately the same as the cost of a month's lattes at Starbucks. If you don't feel that the teaching you are receiving is worth a month of lattes, then obviously the class would be a waste of your time. And what's more, it would be a waste of the teacher's time: if you don't feel their class is worth a month of lattes, chances are you aren't going to be willing to put in the time to do the homework and actually put what you learn in the class.

As far as fees go, I know that I do readings and classes on a sliding scale and am happy to accept barter in lieu of cash. I'm pretty sure that most of the other people I work with would be happy to make arrangements for interested people who are truly in need. It's not about getting rich: it's about a fair exchange for services rendered. And if you don't think that spiritual teaching is a service, then why are you spending your time doing that when you could be doing something more productive?

I should add that in my case I assume that when I am paid for my services I have a responsibility to give the best services possible. That means I have to teach the class to the best of my abilities, and give the clearest and most honest reading I can (not always easy when you have a client who doesn't want to hear what the cards have to say... and believe me, there are PLENTY of those to go around).

The difference between an honest worker and a charlatan, IMO, is that charlatans take your money and feel no obligation to give you what you paid for.

from one of the many posts on "paying for spirituality" by Kenaz Filan (its actually the second one from the end)

[Ophidia]

Re: Do you think its right to charge to teach about neopaganism?

You know, I've thought long and hard about this subject.

I've come to the personal determination that yes, it is ok to charge for teaching students. Doesn't matter what they are students of, either. Teachers get paid to teach. People should get paid for passing their skills onto other people. People should get paid for providing services to other people - and it doesn't matter if it's a doctor, attorney, or psychic/divinator. Everyone is entitled to make a living.

With all that said, I also believe fully in the phrase 'buyer beware'. If you are purchasing tuition from ANY school, whether it's auto repair or Wicca, make sure there is some sort of contract that spells out exactly what you are paying for, and what actions may put you or the school/teacher into breach of contract. If you're paying for psychic/spiritual services, do some research, just like you would if you were contracting a plumber or seeing a new dentist. Get on the 'Net & see if anyone else has gone to that psychic & what their experiences were like. Ask around. Here in Vegas, most of our psychics work out of occult supply stores & botanicas. There are usually other people shopping - ask them if they've used the services & what they thought or felt. Check with the BBB or consumer watchdog-type sites, see if any complaints have been filed. Make informed choices as a consumer.

And if you want to provide a spiritual service (or any service, for that matter), check with your local business laws & set yourself up as a legitimate business-person. Be transparent, write contracts or business agreements. Handle dissatisfied customers fairly. Give people what they pay for. Don't cheat them or change things up in the middle.

[JamesByrne]

Re: Do you think its right to charge to teach about neopaganism?

If you make an utterly out-there intellectual claim (one, I might add that does very little for disabusing your own historical and cultural bias) that is pretty much against even the most basic of available information and that is counter-intuitive to human societies and human behavior in general, and even if it *did* happen it was one of those little exceptions that pop up from time to time...you better be able and willing to back it up when called on it

I appreciate your opinion but I think I have gotten my feelings across on following the current fad in neopaganism clearly. If you want to discuss something out of personal interest in Private where it does not contribute to what I consider to be destructive to my culture then I will be happy to. Or if you want to back up what you are saying with articles then go ahead Im not stopping any of you from doing that. Im just not going to join in.

in the same manner of which you made the claim in the first place, or your entire supposition and argument is completely invalid, whether it might be factually correct or not. And then judging an entire continuum of religions and practices from a number of global cultures and historical periods and developments on the basis of what one historical religion and culture in a specific period of time may or may not have done...that's just sort of bad form in general.

Well teh big wurdz aside I said my ancestors in Ireland didnt pay for religious instruction and if we are not limiting things to pre christian then the argument that Irish christianity was syncreteic with Irish paganism might end the discussion. The reason you are using spaces between words now is because Irish monasteries who created the space between words educated people in religion and the vernacular literature neopagans use to legitimise their beliefs today in europe in the darkages for free regardless of social status. Princes and paupers alike.

My ancestors didnt pay for religious instruction, you can do what you like but IMO you cannot use Irish culture to legitimise a modern capitalist expression of religion

[MaskedOne]

Re: Do you think its right to charge to teach about neopaganism?

I appreciate your opinion but I think I have gotten my feelings across on following the current fad in neopaganism clearly. If you want to discuss something out of personal interest in Private where it does not contribute to what I consider to be destructive to my culture then I will be happy to. Or if you want to back up what you are saying with articles then go ahead Im not stopping any of you from doing that. Im just not going to join in.

As a matter of general notice, if you make a habit of making unique claims about history and repeatedly refuse to back them then you come across on the net as a troll and liar. How you handle that issue when it comes up is on you. PF is generally more polite than some locations I know in its response to unsupported historic claims and you aren't in the debate section so you probably won't be dealing with any official sanction but this is one of the more unique dodges to an evidence request that I've ever seen.

[Tylluan Penry]

Re: Do you think its right to charge to teach about neopaganism?

If you want to discuss something out of personal interest in Private where it does not contribute to what I consider to be destructive to my culture then I will be happy to. Or if you want to back up what you are saying with articles then go ahead Im not stopping any of you from doing that. Im just not going to join in.

You were the one who brought this up. Why on earth would it be destructive to your - or any other - culture?

Well teh big wurdz aside ...

Oh puhleese... don't be so bloody childish. For your information Thalassa is a very well read and well educated Moderator here, and extremely fair minded.

You've been called out on your arguments and now you don't want to play. Why should an argument be okay in private but not here in the forum?

[JamesByrne]

Re: Do you think its right to charge to teach about neopaganism?

Because its what Im comfortable with Tylluan I wouldnt ask you to do things you are uncomfortable with for any reason.

I brought up the initiation thread thats not whats destructive to my culture imo. Its the fad for the pretense that instransigent religious belief can supported by theory. If it was possible the victorian theories of solar cults and king sacrifices that are absolutely obsolete now wouldnt be around in neopaganism but they are in things like the corn king. If it was possible to legitimise neopaganism using even scientific theory the druids wouldnt have lost their social status in Britain when the carbon dating index was recalibrated and stone henge wasnt placed in the iron age anymore. I dont want what happend to your cultural icons and the thing that sacralised your landscape to happen to mine because amatuers who didnt understand theory can change were reckless in their claims about their associations with their culture.

The current fad is a bad idea and I wont have anything to do with it.

[Tylluan Penry]

Re: Do you think its right to charge to teach about neopaganism?

Nothing has happened to my cultural icons. And I'm honestly not sure what sacralised my landscape that was lost....

If I want to believe in something then I'm free to do so and so are you. Just preface any arguments with something like 'I can't prove this but I feel strongly that....' and nobody is going to call you out on it. They may not agree with you (or me, for that matter), but you are the one who said you had plenty of proof, started talking about JSTOR and now seem to be saying that you don't want anything to do with proof or theory.

As for amateurs who didn't understand theory... well, I haven't a clue whom you're referring to there. I'm assuming the king sacrifices might be Margaret Murray and Frazer maybe? I don't think you could call Murray an amateur - no matter how misguided you believe her theories might have been.

And carbon dating Stonehenge is a bit of a red herring really... people can't even agree whether the famous Blue Stones came from Preseli or not....

Forgive me for saying this, but I think you've made a bit of a mess up on this argument.

[Juniper]

Re: Do you think its right to charge to teach about neopaganism?

I'm going to lock this topic, pending staff discussion. An update will follow later on whether this discussion can or will be continued.

[Juniper]

Re: Do you think its right to charge to teach about neopaganism?

Staff Note: Provided we leave out the destruction of any civilization, I am willing to re-open this discussion since it actually is a very good topic. I know many people feel strongly about this subject, regardless of which side they're on. Therefore I think this is a perfect opportunity people to express their points and concerns. Word of advice, though... If you (general you, not specific) are against providing sources or citations to back up your point - when asked - please refrain from bringing it up if possible. That's like dangling a carrot in front of a rabbit on a treadmill.
I will be keeping a close eye on this discussion, so if you want to see this thread continue, please be civil. Thanks.

[Medusa]

Re: Do you think its right to charge to teach about neopaganism?

*raises paw slowly.....

So I have a question because I might be confused as to what this topic is really about. Is it about objecting to pay for any sort of service? Or is it specifically paying for a form of spiritual/religious service? And with that also...is it about it's more acceptable to get the knowledge one on one over the idea of getting that knowledge via paying a service on-line? That might help us get to what we want to discuss. While reviewing this thread I see a lot of different topics being formed.

Thanks.

[orchestrion]

Re: Do you think its right to charge to teach about neopaganism?

It seems that JamesByrne objected to pay specifically for spiritual service. In one of my replies to me he said something to the effect of how you need to trust spiritual mentors/leaders/etc and monetary payment limits that. And he briefly mentioned the example of Alexandrians getting upset over online instruction so I guess that's part of it. I think he just means spiritual instruction in general using an online example.

[thalassa]

Re: Do you think its right to charge to teach about neopaganism?

*raises paw slowly.....

So I have a question because I might be confused as to what this topic is really about. Is it about objecting to pay for any sort of service? Or is it specifically paying for a form of spiritual/religious service? And with that also...is it about it's more acceptable to get the knowledge one on one over the idea of getting that knowledge via paying a service on-line? That might help us get to what we want to discuss. While reviewing this thread I see a lot of different topics being formed.

Thanks.

I'm pretty sure it (at least originally) was just about teaching and initiation...but I've seen people think they are *owed* not just teaching, but readings, healings, even an exorcism for free from a practitioner. Seems pretty selfish and cheap to me. But, the problem with saying even that all of X should do things Y way is that there are a gazillion different contemporary Pagan paths, its not like its a single religion with a single set of teachings and initiation requirements. There are even a few traditions that *do* require payment (or don't prohibit it)--not because they are trying to make money, but because money, in modern society is a sign of commitment, sacrifice and value...and because the time, effort and energy (and often money) that goes into producing a decent class deserves to be recouped.

As to online vs in-person (since I've done both sorts of stuff over the years)...it really doesn't make a difference for informational content, AFAIC. Where it makes a difference is in ritual and practice. In a path that is based as a Mystery religion, in-person is essential to transmit the Mystery of that path (but its not essential to experience Mystery in general). But...learning by doing it yourself and finding what works for you (IMO) still beats learning from people that such at ritual anyhow and then having to go back and DIY all over again. And in some areas, there isn't enough choice/option to do it in person--online is the only access some people have to Paganism, particularly less popular traditions. So...its pretty complicated and messy.