Do you think its right to charge to teach about neopaganism?

[MaskedOne]

Re: Do you think its right to charge to teach about neopaganism?

I'm pretty sure it (at least originally) was just about teaching and initiation...but I've seen people think they are *owed* not just teaching, but readings, healings, even an exorcism for free from a practitioner.

Oddly enough, I'd consider attempting the exorcism for free. Depends on the person asking, the conditions they're dealing with and whether I'm confident both that an exorcism is warranted and that I'm capable of pulling it off. It falls into a category that if I feel your need is sufficiently dire and that I can effectively answer it then I will and payment is low on the list of concerns. It may pop up but only if I think you're attempting to exploit me and that you can easily afford payment.

[PhoenixMask]

Re: Do you think its right to charge to teach about neopaganism?

I think it is wrong. The more people learn the less they have to fear. If people know not to fear paganism/wicca (and other faiths) they will learn to tolerate it a little bit. This will help beginners as well. Those who are new or curious should be able to explore spiritually without having to shell out money. Also people who want to learn spells, rituals and other info should be able to have the information for free.

On the other hand: If someone were giving hands on lessons to a person or a group I think that a fee is okay as long as it is reasonable. Basically it should cover the transport and other costs of the teacher plus a small profit as a thank you.

[Jembru]

Re: Do you think its right to charge to teach about neopaganism?

I think it is wrong. The more people learn the less they have to fear. If people know not to fear paganism/wicca (and other faiths) they will learn to tolerate it a little bit. This will help beginners as well. Those who are new or curious should be able to explore spiritually without having to shell out money. Also people who want to learn spells, rituals and other info should be able to have the information for free.

On the other hand: If someone were giving hands on lessons to a person or a group I think that a fee is okay as long as it is reasonable. Basically it should cover the transport and other costs of the teacher plus a small profit as a thank you.

Hmm, I agree in principle. I really do prefer information to we widely available. But I think there is very little an individual can't piece together themselves from available sources. There is so much free information on this forum, for example. The things one can't teach themselves, usually come down to those little things that characterise a particular tradition, so only matter if belonging to a tradition matters. This information won't give you superpowers or make you a better pagan or witch, so one choosing to do the work for themselves, isn't missing much.

The problem with self-teaching, is that it takes a lot of time and effort. In our society, we often have a trade off going on: either save money, but spend time and effort, or save time and effort and spend money (think of painting a wall vs getting someone else to do it). In my opinion, it should take something to gain the knowledge. If you haven't the patience to do the research yourself (and anyone who has ever self-taught anything, will tell you it takes far longer and much effort to learn, compared to taking a class), then I think it is only right that it's going to cost you money.

People often have a sence of entitlement and believe they deserve to have whatever they want simply handed to them, but I do feel that people respect free things much less, than the things they've had to either work or pay for.

[thalassa]

I think it is wrong. The more people learn the less they have to fear. If people know not to fear paganism/wicca (and other faiths) they will learn to tolerate it a little bit. This will help beginners as well. Those who are new or curious should be able to explore spiritually without having to shell out money.

You already can do this without shelling out money. There are a gazillion blogs, podcasts, essays, articles, websites, forums, etc by just about every tradition and path in contemporary Pagansim. They aren't hard to find. Finding out the basic information of contemporary Paganism and even specific organizations and traditions isn't hard...and its free, if you are willing to put in the time and effort to look and learn. But, if you want training, initiation, etc into a specific path, then you should be looking up what their requirements are. Some of them are free...some of them are not.

If you aren't willing to pay the price--either in cold hard cash or in time, effort and energy...then don't--no one is forcing you to do so. Its not like legitimate organizations and traditions are charging thousands of dollars to become the High Poombah of Gobbeldygook...most classes that I have seen with a fee are negligible--maybe $5-10 a class (less than aerobics) or $35-50 for a series of classes. If you (rhetorical you, not you you) are too cheap for $5 towards space for the class, time of the instructor and the materials for the class...then you obviously don't consider the information and practice being taught that important. AND...its not like a good number of instructors, were you to explain *why* you thought you wanted/needed the information in question and *why* you couldn't pay for it, wouldn't consider other options--like bartering or trading work, etc. Fark, if I taught classes, I'd trade a session of classes for someone to detail my car or give me a couple of awesome back massages in lieu of payment. The problem, of course, is that an instructor can't do that for EVERYONE, or they are operating at a loss.

Also people who want to learn spells, rituals and other info should be able to have the information for free.

No. No one is entitled to have anything that I have created. I don't *owe* anyone the ritual or spell that took me a week or two or a month or a year (and yes, I have a ritual that I've been effectively working on for over a year now) to craft. If I *want* to make that information available, that's my business. You (rhetorical again) don't *have* to have it. You can do the same thing I did--research, brainstorm, divine, think, write, revise, think, write, research, brainstorm, write, get your materials together, prepare what you need for it, and do the work yourself--to make your own ritual or spell. There are a gazillion blogs, podcasts, essays, articles, websites, forums, etc that will tell you the basics of spell casting and ritual format (and variations of ritual format), others that will tell you correspondences, information about deities, etc. Once again, its not difficult, if you are willing to put in the time and effort. But I don't owe you MY time and effort because you are too lazy to do the work yourself.

If I want to sell Thalassa's Meditations, Rituals and Spells of the Sea for 9.99 on kindle, that's my business. Or, if I decide to develop and organize a curriculum, rent out space at the local metaphysical shop, get supplies together and take a day off work every week for a month to teach a class in "Fertility--->Childbirth: How to organize, plan, write and perform rituals and spells from conception to childbirth and the first year of childhood" and charge $7 a person for 8 people per 2 hour session for 4 weeks worth of classes, that's my business too (I just "made" a whopping $224 dollars, before paying for the space and supplies...I would have done better to not bother and go to work). Of course, I'm too lazy to do either one of those things (and I don't really see a need for it)...but, if someone is willing to go to all that work, they are entitled to ask for reasonable compensation*. If they ask for unreasonable compensation, then don't buy it. Reasonable is up to the purchacer--I've paid $50 for a single printing University press publication on the role of Botany in the Natural History movement during the Victorian era, and I've turned my nose up at $5 on Amazon used for a copy of some Pagan book or another...it all depends on how much worth you think there is in the item or event.

*Reasonable compensation is totally different from an expectation of illegal activities. If someone expects something illegal as compensation, GTFO. I might also add that there is room for abuse in both models--free or paid.

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Oddly enough, I'd consider attempting the exorcism for free. Depends on the person asking, the conditions they're dealing with and whether I'm confident both that an exorcism is warranted and that I'm capable of pulling it off. It falls into a category that if I feel your need is sufficiently dire and that I can effectively answer it then I will and payment is low on the list of concerns. It may pop up but only if I think you're attempting to exploit me and that you can easily afford payment.

And I can totally see that. In the instance I was thinking of...think spiritual hypochondriac with entitlement issues for the "victim".

I think what you have said here is part of the point--IF. "if I feel your need is sufficiently dire and that I can effectively answer it then I will and payment is low on the list of concerns" Well, yeah! But if I don't...

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And I think that is the heart of this. Someone doesn't *need* teaching...its a *want* not a need. And, to some extent, I don't *need* to teach you. Or do a spell, or a reading, etc. You (rhetorical again) aren't entitled to something I have just because I have it and you want it, but aren't willing to go to the work to figure it out yourself. I might add, for those espousing the idea that "teaching is wrong if its for money" that those traditions that don't require money payment often have some pretty stringent requirements in time, effort, work, contribution to the group, necessary materials, etc. You don't get to just slide by your free classes...you are expected to work your arse off...and if you don't, you are out the door. They don't want some lazy slacker looking for a free ride anymore than someone teaching a class for payment. Which is their prerogative as well...

What we have is two different models of expectation...you are free to pick the one you like on the basis of what you want to learn and on the basis of what YOU believe to be preferable. But just because you don't like it, doesn't mean its "wrong".

[Tylluan Penry]

Re: Do you think its right to charge to teach about neopaganism?

I agree with Thal. If you want to learn something then either make the effort or be prepared for the fact that you may have to pay for it. And as with all things, 'caveat emptor - let the buyer beware' applies. Research what it is you're being asked to pay for, ask some (intelligent) questions. Then make up your own mind.

But.... speaking from the other side of the coin... if you email me for help, it's nice to ask first whether I could help, whether I could suggest etc. Please don't dump your life story onto me and expect me to sort it all out. In that past I've been naive enough to try even that, and then had more and more dumped on me (by the same person - NOT anyone ever associated with the PF) who then got really angry when I explained I just couldn't - and wouldn't - do anything else.

I don't get my internet for free. I don't get my books, journals, magazines etc. for free. The printer won't work for free. And frankly if you really feel entitled to get everything for free you will get exactly what you deserve....;-)

[MaskedOne]

Re: Do you think its right to charge to teach about neopaganism?

spiritual hypochondriac + entitlement issues = give me money

Seconding the need/want distinction. Most people will never need mystical lore. As such, teaching is very unlikely to fall under the segment of my code/beliefs where I believe in providing freebies. The vast majority of the population is much better off that way. If teaching you falls into my "worry about payment later" rules then either

1) you've got some unique and creative issues in life
or
2) something not of this world has decided to deliver marching orders to me by way of burning bush, wall writing or similar dramatics and you will be dealing with unique and creative issues soon enough.

Readings, shrug, I strongly believe that if someone tells me they need a reading then a reading probably is one of the absolute least beneficial things to provide. Then again, divination and I are on shaky terms at the best of times and that may be personal bias.

[Ophidia]

Re: Do you think its right to charge to teach about neopaganism?

After reading things over a couple of times, I think that people have a hard time placing valuing certain things, especially now that we are more of a capitalist/monetary society and less of a community/communal society.

Yes, in tribal circumstances, spiritual people were often set aside but they also provided a real value to their tribesmates. They were healers, they negotiated with the frightening and potentially dangerous spirit worlds, they carried and passed down knowledge of taboos, rituals, dates, etc & whatever. They placed their spiritual selves at risk in much the same way as the hunters & warriors placed their physical selves at risk. So even if the shamans, medicine people, what-have-you were not paid in coin, they were paid in the physical safety of the community, they were fed & housed, and given status.

Nowadays, there are very few cultures who still do this. I'm a Pagan priestess, I have knowledge of the Otherworlds, I can divine omens, I can heal or harm with herbs and magic, I have specialized knowledge. Who houses me? Who feeds me? Who pays me for that specialization? Who provides me with the physical safety of community? Do I have a status that is set aside from anyone else? Is my specialized wisdom and experience in the spiritual realm given any value whatsoever?

No. I go to work to pay my bills and feed myself. My 'community' isn't exactly safe, and what safety I am given is provided by local law enforcement and self-vigilance. At best, my 'specialized' skills are seen as party novelties or at worst, I'm seen as a charlatan - and forget trying to actually 'practice' herbal medicine, at least in the US.

Not one Pagan I've ever met in real life, not one Pagan 'community' I've been around in real life, has ever considered setting aside anything for a 'priesthood'. There's always talk about how cool it would be to set up communes, temples or monasteries where various Pagans are set up as a priesthood & supported by their community, but there's one big stumbling block between 'oh, that would be cool!' and 'yes, let's do it!':

Tithing and the support of monastic services are seen as an abuse perpetrated by the Catholic/Christian religion. A lot of people I know feel that Catholics and Christians, and even Buddhists to an extent, are being taken advantage of by their religion.

In a way, it makes sense because ANY Pagan can be their own Priest/Priestess/Shaman/Medicine Person. We don't need anyone to intervene with the spiritual world on behalf of ourselves. We can all be solitary practitioners if we want, and in today's world anyone can talk to more experienced people via the internet. Most of the time, I don't even need to pay someone to do home repairs because of the DIYs all over the place, so why should I pay for spiritual services when I can do that for myself, too? It's a luxury for me to actually pay someone to do something for me - and it's usually one I can't afford.

But when I do want or need someone to do something for me, be it repair a water-damaged wall or consult the divinatory omens, I'm going to pay them fairly and well. People sacrifice their time and energy to their work, whatever it is. I know I spend a lot of time at work, acquiring money to support myself. I'd love to be a Pagan priestess, just puttering around the temple all day, but I'm a modern American, so nope, I go to work. And if someone wants tutelage or spiritual services from me, that is taking away the time I have left over - my free time, in other words, to work for them as a teacher or priestess. So yes, I'm going to expect to be paid, be it in cold hard cash or in exchange for goods or services that I feel are valuable to me. When people say, "Well, if you have the time..." they are forgetting that time ain't cheap.

[Medusa]

Re: Do you think its right to charge to teach about neopaganism?

You know school teachers get paid. They give us knowledge that we could theoretically get on our own. What they are getting paid for is the hard work they already went through to figure out the most efficient ways to learn that information.

Should we stop paying teachers for the knowledge they teach?

[Tylluan Penry]

Re: Do you think its right to charge to teach about neopaganism?

You know school teachers get paid. They give us knowledge that we could theoretically get on our own. What they are getting paid for is the hard work they already went through to figure out the most efficient ways to learn that information.

Should we stop paying teachers for the knowledge they teach?

Actually we could run with this idea and take it to incredible lengths..... we don't need waiters, we can get our own food. We don't need drain companies, we should climb down the sewer with a bucket and a shovel and clear the drains ourselves.
We don't need politicians... well actually, maybe that's a good one to keep in mind
Eventually everything would be free. And nobody would have a job.
Could be worth a go....

[Medusa]

Re: Do you think its right to charge to teach about neopaganism?

Actually we could run with this idea and take it to incredible lengths..... we don't need waiters, we can get our own food. We don't need drain companies, we should climb down the sewer with a bucket and a shovel and clear the drains ourselves.
We don't need politicians... well actually, maybe that's a good one to keep in mind
Eventually everything would be free. And nobody would have a job.
Could be worth a go....

Lol. Some here would say that was how it was before you know...cultures were damaged. But I have a sneaking suspicion if I baked sweet and warm tortillas for the dude down the street to fix my drain 'for free'...he would do my house first. If I gave him some of those tortillas. Oh noes! I've gone and bartered! Surely that is not considered pay for service.

/sarcasm

[Gardenia]

Re: Do you think its right to charge to teach about neopaganism?

You already can do this without shelling out money. There are a gazillion blogs, podcasts, essays, articles, websites, forums, etc by just about every tradition and path in contemporary Pagansim. They aren't hard to find. Finding out the basic information of contemporary Paganism and even specific organizations and traditions isn't hard...and its free, if you are willing to put in the time and effort to look and learn. But, if you want training, initiation, etc into a specific path, then you should be looking up what their requirements are. Some of them are free...some of them are not.

This. A million times this. There is so much free information out there on the internet, you just need to sit down and search for it. (Sure, some of it is going to be crap - but some teachers, free or paid, are also going to dish out crap.) No one is being forced to pay to learn about the basics of paganism. No one is being forced to take classes they must pay for, it's a personal choice the individual can make on their own. If you don't feel you should have to pay for a class, then don't do it, simple as that - but don't turn around and complain that you need to search for your own information or whatever else. There are tons of options out there for getting information, paid classes are just one option, there are still plenty of other ways for beginners or those who are just curious to see what paganism is about.

[Jembru]

Re: Do you think its right to charge to teach about neopaganism?

^ yeah, I agree too, as it is basically what I had already said. Though I'm getting used to forum life and having my words reiterated! ^^

[thalassa]

Re: Do you think its right to charge to teach about neopaganism?

^ yeah, I agree too, as it is basically what I had already said. Though I'm getting used to forum life and having my words reiterated! ^^

lol...I thought it was funny because you posted while I was typing, and when I posted, it said I had a new post, but my post was the last one I saw...and then I figured out that you had posted while I was posting.

Just goes to show that not only do great minds think alike...but sometimes they think alike AT THE SAME TIME!!!!

[Celtic Tiger]

Re: Do you think its right to charge to teach about neopaganism?

Do you think its ok to charge people to teach them about neopaganism? Is it ok because it costs money to run courses maybe or is it taboo because somethings should be sacred?

I personally think its not ok to charge for neopaganism even if you are providing a service for 2 reasons. One to me some things are sacred and I feel strongly its in bad taste to put a monetary value on them and two if you can just buy something without really earning it what value does it really have? Like a diploma from some college where money comes before standards... having it on your cv is meaningless.

I think that it depends on what you're charging for. If you are talking about a formal class or a seminar on... well.. anything, be it neopaganism or aikido, then assuming no charlatan element, the fee should reflect the costs and be reasonable.

For example, fifty dollars per attendee to attend a three day seminar where a the instructor is flown in from out of state or even out of country is reasonable: there are costs incurred by obtaining the location of the seminar and costs for the instructor to both travel and stay for three days.

Charging for a formal class held in a fixed location over a period of several months is likewise not unreasonable in and of itself. However, if the cost of this class exceeds the cost of taking a class at a community college, then there might be some gouging going on.

All in all, I view the practice of a spiritual path to be distinct from the providing of services. Services cost money. Putting together materials for classes costs money. Renting the space in which to teach costs money, unless you have a fixed location that you own, like most Christian denominations do. But fixed locations cost money as well; both to purchase and to maintain.

I teach martial arts part time. I am happy to tell anyone about what I teach, and even give them pointers and some unofficial coaching. But my formal classes cost money. Money for the space that I rent, the gasoline to get there, and the various materials that I need. I do not charge for gradings; I am unaffiliated and have no organization to pay into at this time and any material costs for a grading are covered by tuition.

My classes are formal training, not a group of guys and gals getting together to practice. Likewise, training clergy is not a group of people getting together to celebrate holy days/worship/pray/whatever a religion happens to call it. If I attend as a member, I do not have to become clergy. If I want to become clergy then I am asking for more than just praying.

If a group requires me to pay money just to learn about the religion so that I can follow along at ceremonies, then they're full of it. If they want to host a special event that covers the religion in great detail, then as I said above, a fee to cover the associated costs is reasonable.

Now, having said that, religion is essentially non profit and tax exempt in the US, so while I am okay with covering the cost of training clergy, plus a little extra for operations, whatever they may be, religious organizations should not be turning a profit. If they are, then they should be taxed accordingly.

[Jembru]

Re: Do you think its right to charge to teach about neopaganism?

It's been touched on but not directly addressed, so I am just wondering: do some people think that money is a negative entity and has no place in a spiritual life? Although I feel greed is a bad thing, I believe it is the responsibility of the individual to foster a positive attitude towards money. Otherwise, I think earning money, including large amounts, can be a spiritual experience. Of course, so can spending it.

If the OP considers money and wealth to be contrary to his spiritual beliefs, then I can understand his feelings on this subject far better.