MMJ patients continue to get screwed...

[ThatKrazy]

Re: MMJ patients continue to get screwed...

If you didn't want a dialogue, I have to wonder why you posted in the thread.

My bad, I didn't realize it was in rants and I'd have my ear chewed off for typing a short opinion.

---------- Post added at 05:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:51 PM ----------

Fine, I'll go for it and show how you are completely wrong.

You're wrong.

No, you just completely misread everything I said, insinuated more than was ever written, and ignored facts.

Ahh, in that case you must support legislation that bans alcohol as well?

No, but I don't really have a problem with absinthe being banned.

Hell, my problem isn't even that. My problem is that for those of us that are LEGAL, we shouldn't be treated like we're criminals.

Um, okay. Didn't really call you a criminal or anything, but whatevs.

Well, tobacco isn't an hallucinogen, so I'm not sure how you could make that stick. You could probably make it stick with booze though.

I can make it stick because it's a far worse and more dangerous drug than marijuana. I'd think you'd agree with that point and say "hey, tobacco is legal and kills millions, why not make pot legal?" Not sure what you're pissed off about.

Wouldn't happen. The reason it can happen with tobacco is because tobacco needs very specific conditions to grow in and is very difficult to turn a reasonable profit off of it. Weed is incredibly easy to grow and companies would see a marked benefit by keeping their drugs natural.

So you trust big business to keep weed natural? I'm sure that would work out just fine and you'd only continue getting the best and most natural product. *facepalm*

You're right - it's like diabetics and their damn insulin. We could just outlaw it if they didn't "want" it so much. Listen: For the vast majority of MMJ patients, having access to their painkillers isn't a "want", it's a damn need. There's nothing "tricky" about the situation, other than the fact that you (obviously) don't have any experience with people suffering through the joys of chemotherapy.

Um yeah, because druggies are all over insulin and trafficking it over borders to bring to frat parties. Right.
All I was saying is that marijuana is a popular recreational drug widely desired by people without any medical need for it. Do you really disagree with that statement?
As for the last part of your statement - wow, completely unfounded personal attack much?

So we just screw the ADHD people to prevent the assholes from taking advantage? We make something illegal because other people can't be responsible? Sounds to me like we should outright ban guns and cars too because people are far too cavalier and dangerous about their use of those particular objects.

I never suggested we take adderall off the market, only stated the fact that it is distributed widely, often to people without any medical need for it. Again, not really anything that should be controversial. It's a fact that people are abusing adderall and other ADHD meds in order to achieve better grades. Medical use of marijuana presents a similar problem. To ignore that is foolish.

[Roknrol]

Re: MMJ patients continue to get screwed...

[QUOTE=ThatKrazy;42663]My bad, I didn't realize it was in rants and I'd have my ear chewed off for typing a short opinion.[COLOR="Silver"]
My apologies for misunderstanding. It sounded to me like you were supporting the Federal Government ban on MJ, and their treatment of legitimate patients. My point was that your arguments (while many of them do apply), do not diminish the fact that there is a very real need for legalisation at the very minimum in the medical sense, and to be perfectly honest - considering what is already legal (alcohol and cigarettes), weed should be a non-issue.

As far as "keeping it natural" goes, my point (which I did not elaborate on, and I apologise) is that weed is so easy to grow that the vast majority of the people selling it will be growing it themselves. Not only that, but you can't feasibly grow tobacco plants in your basement - at least, not enough to keep you into your pack a day habit, but I can grow enough weed to keep me smoking as much as I like without eating up an enormous amount of space in my house. It's also quite easy to do, so if anyone is concerned about how natural their weed is, there (in a legal world) would be plenty of places to get natural stuff. Not that the corporations would keep it natural, but that the users and the community would.

Um yeah, because druggies are all over insulin and trafficking it over borders to bring to frat parties. Right.
All I was saying is that marijuana is a popular recreational drug widely desired by people without any medical need for it. Do you really disagree with that statement?

No, but I disagree with you using the criminal element as support to strip rights away from those that are responsible. I'm arguing for those that benefit from the real legitimate uses of marijuana - just because there is a criminal element involved in the same drug doesn't diminish the need for the drug to be prescription legal. There's a market in a ton of other drugs too - morphine, for example - and the government doesn't seem to have a problem with pharmacies being able to dispense it to the appropriate people. (Honestly, I don't know if morphine is something that can be picked up from a pharmacy. I know that lithium is, though, so the point stands).

As for the last part of your statement - wow, completely unfounded personal attack much?

Occasionally, when I misunderstand intent.

I never suggested we take adderall off the market, only stated the fact that it is distributed widely, often to people without any medical need for it. Again, not really anything that should be controversial. It's a fact that people are abusing adderall and other ADHD meds in order to achieve better grades. Medical use of marijuana presents a similar problem. To ignore that is foolish.

As above, this isn't a different problem than is already accounted for with thousands of other drugs.

I believe I addressed everything (either in the first paragraph or itemised) - if I missed something let me know.

And yes - I take this topic very personally. My wife works in Oncology...I've been to more cancer funerals and breast cancer awareness functions than I'd care to admit, and I'm acutely aware of what some MMJ patients have to suffer through. Me? I could probably use a different type of painkiller and be just fine, although that certainly isn't my preference.

[ThatKrazy]

Re: MMJ patients continue to get screwed...

At least we finally have most of our facts right. As far as analyzing what the government should be doing with the facts, that's where we still differ. I do believe that the facts we outlined earlier mean that there should rightly be plenty of caution used as far as partially legalizing a drug like MJ. It would be foolish to agree with everything the government is doing on the issue, but they are right to be cautious. It's a sensitive topic and there are drawbacks to allowing medical use. To you, these drawbacks are minor and, as exist for other drugs, MJ should be allowed freely for medical use. To me, these drawbacks are considerable and the similarities to complications with other drugs is a warning to be more careful.

[Roknrol]

Re: MMJ patients continue to get screwed...

They are only right to be cautious if their premises (is that the plural?) are correct, and while I can't address all of them off of the top of my head, *most* of them are unfounded/invalid.

For the record - I have *never* had an hallucinogenic experience from smoking pot. I can't speak for anyone else, of course, but I've smoked quite a bit In my estimation, that's probably the most convincing point that you bring to the table above, and I think that would be the one to address (primarily). I did a little bit of Google searching and came up with a lot of "The Government has classified it as an hallucinogen..." and similar potential misinformation - I'd prefer to see something from an independent resource to confirm that (hell, a good firsthand account would work fine too )

The thing about legalising it - the criminals will still be criminals, but they won't be criminals with weed if it's legal. It's like during prohibition - there were booze runners...all up until the time that prohibition ended (and a little later for the counties that remained dry). I think the big question there is: Should it be legal (by this meaning, in the same way that tobacco and alcohol are legal - I think we mostly agree that the medical side of things should be tolerated, if not embraced). So the people selling crack? Yup, they'll still be selling crack. The people who are selling weed because there's a black market for it right now? Most of them will go away if it's legal - they'll either start selling other/different drugs, or find a new line of work.

Of course, I also believe that the Govt could tax the hell out of it and help out with our deficit, but that might be a tad optimistic

[B. de Corbin]

Re: MMJ patients continue to get screwed...

Whatever the benefits or drawbacks to medical marijuana are, the troubling thing to me about the situation which Rok has drawn attention to is this -

Certain states have declared the use and distribution of marijuana to be legal under certain conditions within their borders. The Federal Government, however, is illegally stepping outside of their authority to act within states and either aresting or threatening to arrest people who are committing NO CRIME.

The Federal Government can pass a law, such as the Federal Controlled Substances Act, and the states can choose to abide by it within their borders if the government of that state (elected by the voters of that state) so chooses, but the Federal Government has no leagal authority set aside state laws, except in those areas where such action is supported by the Constitution. In the case of drugs (unlike, say, slavery), it is not supported by the Constitution.

Personal feelings about medical marjiuana or marijuana in general are irrelevent to the legal issue - the ineresting question to me is whether the citizens of this country are willing to allow the Federal Government set aside the U.S. Constitution and exercise an unlimited authroity which it does not legally have.

To me, this looks like a test case - will the people of the United States accept a dictatorship which idoes not respect the boundaries between state and federal governments set up by the people who founded this country?

Stay tuned. It'll be interesting to find out.

[Roknrol]

Re: MMJ patients continue to get screwed...

[QUOTE=B. de Corbin;42701
To me, this looks like a test case - will the people of the United States accept a dictatorship which does not respect the boundaries between state and federal governments set up by the people who founded this country?

Stay tuned. It'll be interesting to find out.[/QUOTE]
I don't see why not - we've never stopped them from doing it before now. Seriously - the majority of people are so apathetic that you could tell them you were taking their kids to go work in a salt mine and they'd hang their head and say "ok, but you're not going to take American Idol off of the air, are you?"

[B. de Corbin]

Re: MMJ patients continue to get screwed...

Well, it was tried once - that Civil War we had. And the Federal Government won.

But you're right - people are apathetic, and all the places where rights are being scrubbed away affect only a limited number of people at any given time, so there is no big grass roots movement which draws attention to the problem and gets people fired up enough to do something.

Maybe medical marijuana will be the thing that interests enough people. It really took a big, popular movement to get it locally legalized - maybe the organizations behind that initial movement will keep pushing.

The way to have good and safe government is not to trust it all to one, but to divide it among the many, distributing to every one exactly the functions he is competent to.

THOMAS JEFFERSON, letter to Joseph C. Cabell, Feb. 2, 1816

[LadyGarnetRose]

Re: MMJ patients continue to get screwed...

Marijuana does not cause hallucinations. It can cause illusions at VERY high doses. We're talking brain numbed, can't get up to pee, you've gone to far amounts.

The same kind of people that would smoke that amount of marijuana, drink till they pass out.


Something that bothers me about people who are so happy to be on the "it should be illegal band wagon" do you have any clue why it became illegal in the first place?

[ChainLightning]

Re: MMJ patients continue to get screwed...

Something that bothers me about people who are so happy to be on the "it should be illegal band wagon" do you have any clue why it became illegal in the first place?

That's my whole problem with the outlawing the stuff. The "why".

AND: It is not the same excuse that's being used to KEEP it outlawed.

Also, this "gateway drug" classification that makes marijuana even more dangerous and addictive than cocaine or amphetamines or barbiturates. It's WAY safer, and better FOR you, to snort a few lines, smoke up some crack, drop some beaners and reds than it is to smoke a few bowls? Bull F'n shit. That 'Schedule I' classification of marijuana is purely subjective, unsubstantiated and political and it has absolutely zero basis in any verifiably accurate studies.

But everyone's got an opinion on how bad it is. Fickle. Alcohol and tobacco? Dog bites? Falls in the bathroom? Hell, even SHARK attacks kill, maim or otherwise injure more people than weed does.

Money, politics and a lack of understanding the racist origins are all that stands between illegal and legal. Nothing to do with the drug, itself.

[LadyGarnetRose]

Re: MMJ patients continue to get screwed...

So very true Chain. It'd be healthier for me to have marijuana than the amount of Valium and Vicodin that I have to take in order to function most days. But to the Feds I'd be a criminal.

It makes not a wit of sense.

[Roknrol]

Re: MMJ patients continue to get screwed...

Montana is probably one of the best places for that right now - the Feds are notorious for ignoring that part of the world unless they don't have any other choice

[LadyGarnetRose]

Re: MMJ patients continue to get screwed...

Montana is probably one of the best places for that right now - the Feds are notorious for ignoring that part of the world unless they don't have any other choice

That might be. But, if the feds did get a bee in their bonnet, I don't want to end up in prison because I violated their stupid laws.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: MMJ patients continue to get screwed...

Since the evidence is clear that marijuana can be used to treat a whole host of problems, it should be moved from schedule I (compounds with high abuse potential but no medical use) to schedule II (compounds with high abuse potential and medical use) - as it is right now, the Federal Government (in this case, the DEA) is ignoring the research, and rejecting the experiences of doctors who are actually out in the field doing medical work, and the decisions of the state governments regarding the validity of that research. A doctor can't actually write out a prescription of MM, since the DEA says it has no actual use (doctors in states which allow MM write a "recommendation" to use it).

How did the DEA (made up of non elected officials) ever end up with the authority to set aside the findings of medical researchers - without ever having to justify to anybody their reasons for doing so?

[Roknrol]

Re: MMJ patients continue to get screwed...

Because the inception of the DEA was an attempt to ban a drug without actually having to have citizens do anything silly (like *VOTE* on it). The department was created as a means to circumvent the Constitution, and they're still doing it today.

[ChainLightning]

Re: MMJ patients continue to get screwed...

Because the inception of the DEA was an attempt to ban a drug without actually having to have citizens do anything silly (like *VOTE* on it). The department was created as a means to circumvent the Constitution, and they're still doing it today.

^This.

The DEA, by it's design, doesn't have to answer to medical research, doesn't have to respond to public sentiment, doesn't have to abide by facts or science, at all. It only has to follow the laws that it, itself, chooses to. The Constitution is completely irrelevant and inapplicable, somehow.

It reminds me of the debate about the FCC, actually. Who gave the FCC the ultimate authority over the airwaves and internet? The FCC did. I sure wish I could set MY authority up in such a manner.