Parenting Debate: To Snip or no?

[DanieMarie]

Re: Parenting Debate: To Snip or no?

I don't know about the benefits outweighing the problems. Studies aside, if that were actually true, disease and infection would be far more common in Europe and would be increasing in Canada and Australia (where circumcision is falling out of practice). This is not true. It doesn't make a lick of difference. It's about as necessary as getting your ears pierced.

I can understand wanting to do it when it's so normal out of fear that future women in his life might be grossed out...but, if no one does it, women don't care. Women over here know what they look like, but no one ever talks about how they wish guys here had it done. Ever.

I guess the reason that it's such a hot topic here is that there are more and more of us from other countries. I can't speak for everyone, but it kind of almost feels a bit offensive. Like, I know it's not intentional, but it sort of feels like people who argue that it's cleaner are basically saying that we're (or our boyfriends) are dirtier. Maybe it feels like that the other way around too, because I'm sure we get pretty judgemental about it (I know I do). Anyway, doing it and -not- doing it are so engrained in our cultures that people seem to have really strong feelings about it and take it personally when the other side argues about it.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Parenting Debate: To Snip or no?

I think that what happens is that people get sick of other people sticking their noses into their personal lives and family decisions, especially over something as minor as a bit of cosmetic surgery.

Those of us who do not feel as if we are broken do not want others attempting to fix us in order to meet somebody else's ideals of the right way to live.

That is what ticks people off...
...and it always will.

[DanieMarie]

Re: Parenting Debate: To Snip or no?

You have to understand though....not all countries have the attitude of "everyone can make all their choices for their children." In a lot of places, there are laws about medical procedures and education and stuff. So, that's why some of us get like that

[thalassa]

Re: Parenting Debate: To Snip or no?

I guess the reason that it's such a hot topic here is that there are more and more of us from other countries. I can't speak for everyone, but it kind of almost feels a bit offensive. Like, I know it's not intentional, but it sort of feels like people who argue that it's cleaner are basically saying that we're (or our boyfriends) are dirtier. Maybe it feels like that the other way around too, because I'm sure we get pretty judgemental about it (I know I do). Anyway, doing it and -not- doing it are so engrained in our cultures that people seem to have really strong feelings about it and take it personally when the other side argues about it.

TBH, I've never seen a parent have to justify why they didn't circumcise their child with the same virulence as a parent that did choose to circumcise their child unless the first party (or someone like them) started the conversation in hostility (and I've spend a lot of time on "mom" blogs, forums, etc...so I've seen this debate play out quite often). Honestly, I think this whole topic is a made-up internet drama, for people to bicker about.

You have to understand though....not all countries have the attitude of "everyone can make all their choices for their children." In a lot of places, there are laws about medical procedures and education and stuff. So, that's why some of us get like that

Actually...I think that illustrates his point perfectly. Its sort of the same...why are _______ (enter country) telling ________ (enter other country) how they should be raising their children? I could care less if people in France or Russia circumcise their children, or spank them, or really...anything up to actually physically or mentally or spiritually disabling them or not. In this particular instance, its not something that potentially HARMS their child any more than parents potentially HARM their child by choosing not to do it (and yes, the case can be made for both, over the life of the child). IMO, on the scale of 1-10 on the list of things to worry about in terms of parenting (in particular how OTHER PEOPLE parent) its sort of like a -20.

Personally, I have many very lovely friends that are parents that have chose not to circumcise their children, and I've certainly never dreamed of telling them they are bad parents for their choice. Outside of Rafe (here in this thread, because we've met IRL a few times, and the topic has NEVER come up), I've never even had a debate on the matter (and the only reason that either of us know, is because we've changed each other's boy children's diapers) with any of them...because their reasons and justifications are none of my business. I assume, that like me, they have made their choices after careful deliberation of the available information and their own experiences, and I respect that choice, even if I don't agree with it--period. Whenther that be on the matter of breast feeding, extended car seats, pivate vs public school, etc.

With the exception of this thread (or the equivelent FB or other post), I don't even think about the fact that we circumcized our son, and I haven't since it was done. I have actual parenting decisions that will make a lasting effect on my children to make--like teaching them manners, and how to read and to swim, and how to get along with other, and taking them outside to run and make mud pies.

[DanieMarie]

Re: Parenting Debate: To Snip or no?

You're probably right...but it does have the feel that the pro-circumcision people are doing the same thing. It's never really framed as 100% personal choice and it does come off like "it's dirty not to," which sort of gives the feeling that people who don't do it are dirtier. Just sayin'.

BTW I'd never have a debate about it personally either. I wouldn't actually judge a friend who did it or put him or her down for it. I think it's pointless but not really harmful either, so it's not worth it. Maybe it's the impersonal nature of the internet that makes me a bit more adamant about it. This topic has some personal anecdotes here and there, but mostly it's just opinion in general.

[ChainLightning]

Re: Parenting Debate: To Snip or no?

I don't know about the benefits outweighing the problems. Studies aside, if that were actually true, disease and infection would be far more common in Europe and would be increasing in Canada and Australia (where circumcision is falling out of practice). This is not true. It doesn't make a lick of difference. It's about as necessary as getting your ears pierced.

Dated: August 27, 2012

The Task Force concluded that the health benefits of newborn male circumcision outweigh the risks and justify access to this procedure for families who choose it.

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/130/3/e756.full?sid=bd9574fb-4575-4d35-a46e-a63394e68331#sec-62

In the same report:

Parents should weigh the health benefits and risks in light of their own religious, cultural, and personal preferences, as the medical benefits alone may not outweigh these other considerations for individual families.

[DanieMarie]

Re: Parenting Debate: To Snip or no?

Once again, if there were any real benefits, men in countries that don't do it would have higher rates of infection and disease. Since this isn't the case, I have a hard time believing any studies that suggest otherwise. Studies are not foolproof.

Do it if you want, but don't try to claim it's healthier or cleaner. It's not. There is some evidence that it can prevent HIV, but you know what prevents HIV far better? Not having unprotected sex with random partners. If you look at HIV stats between developed countries, there is virtually no difference in countries that practice circumcision and those that don't. We should be preaching sex ed in the developing world, not circumcision.

- - - Updated - - -

I just realized I'm getting a bit of an attitude here, and I'm acting like a word that rhymes with "witch" and starts with a "b." Sorry about that. I'm really cranky today :/

[Denarius]

Re: Parenting Debate: To Snip or no?

Once again, if there were any real benefits, men in countries that don't do it would have higher rates of infection and disease.

That's not really so clear, first we'd have to know what percentage of infections are specifically penile in nature and then what percentage of those are mitigated by circumcision. Because it's not just a matter of rate of infection, but also of severity and ease of treatment.

[Bjorn]

Re: Parenting Debate: To Snip or no?

Ok, I know I probably shouldn't be posting on here since I'm not a parent and all, but I would like to be someday, so I'm diving in and I'm doing so with the the dual perspectives of a woman attracted to male organ, as well as a potential mother. I realize that this is not an adult thread so I will keep my terminology professional (or try).

So I've always preferred the natural look on a fellow when erect. It's somehow more exciting, though there have been other examples that I would classify as 'too much.' Not exactly attractive when you're accustomed to the sheared alternative -- which, by the way, I learned here that seems to be mostly American. I encountered one male who had just a little taken off the top to make it easier to clean but while still covering the tip enough while flaccid. Probably the best of both worlds.

As for who gets the final say, I would barter the naming rights for the weiner rights. Fair trade.

[Ophidia]

Re: Parenting Debate: To Snip or no?

I think there's an underlying difference about medical care for ob/gyn stuff in general. In many places, it's a 'choice' to have a child circumcised or not. A doctor or nurse might even advise against it.

Here in the US, I think a lot of parents basically get bullied into getting their boys circumcised. I know this is how my friend felt with her first son. She and her husband didn't have time to make an informed decision - it was treated like a matter of routine paperwork. If the prevailing medical attitude was one of choice over routine, I wonder how common circumcision would be in the US? I mean, if your OB/Gyn was from Germany where they didn't normally do it, vs. an American doctor who recommended it all the time, would that make a difference?

[thalassa]

Re: Parenting Debate: To Snip or no?

I think there's an underlying difference about medical care for ob/gyn stuff in general. In many places, it's a 'choice' to have a child circumcised or not. A doctor or nurse might even advise against it.

Here in the US, I think a lot of parents basically get bullied into getting their boys circumcised. I know this is how my friend felt with her first son. She and her husband didn't have time to make an informed decision - it was treated like a matter of routine paperwork. If the prevailing medical attitude was one of choice over routine, I wonder how common circumcision would be in the US? I mean, if your OB/Gyn was from Germany where they didn't normally do it, vs. an American doctor who recommended it all the time, would that make a difference?

I think this also depends on when and where she had her kid. I can see doctors 20 years ago (or in rural areas or old old school doctors, etc) being like that...but Sharkbait is 4, and we were asked what we wanted to do--and this was in a military hospital (there isn't usually a lot of asking going on in those). Heck, we were even given a little pamphlet with pros and cons and links for more info to both options around the beginning of the third trimester (it was a whole packet of stuff on writing a birth plan, planning to breastfeed and stuff). And on that note...that should be something you should decide well before you head to the hospital to deliver (where you are in a shitty and stressed out state of mind to do or decide much of anything).

Scott and I decided before we even knew if our first pregnancy was even a boy or a girl, whether or not we would circumcise (which was nearly 3 years before we had a son) whether or not we would circumcise...and while we revisited the idea, we never really changed decision. Personally, I sort of think this should be a something you decide well before you go into labor (along with the decision of "which religion do I want to raise the child as" when parents come from two different faiths, and all that.

[Ophidia]

Re: Parenting Debate: To Snip or no?

I think this also depends on when and where she had her kid. I can see doctors 20 years ago (or in rural areas or old old school doctors, etc) being like that...

Well, it was about 20 years ago - but she was in a main public hospital here in Las Vegas. Even her midwife pressured her on the second boy - "Oh, we can do it right here at your home. It'll be like a bris."

[Medusa]

Re: Parenting Debate: To Snip or no?

If parents cannot decide for their children on certain things, then who exactly is supposed to? That person down the street I don't know. You really want anyone else making any decisions for your kid?

[Auseklis]

Re: Parenting Debate: To Snip or no?

Why would nature make a human (male) a certain way that isn't functional/normal? Why don't we need to circumcise animals/pets or stock animals etc and they do not get infections.

[Quetzal]

Re: Parenting Debate: To Snip or no?

Hm, I'm not a huge fan of bodily mutilation of any kind (especially when any health benefits or hazards are unclear or unproven), so it's not something I'd choose for my self or my kids.

But, I also don't care what other people do to themselves or their kids, or the world around them for that matter. As long as it's not something that's forced on me, ya'll can vigorously mutilate whatever you ya want to.