"8 Reasons Young Americans Don't Fight Back" - very insightful Bruce Levine article

[AzazelEblis]

Re: "8 Reasons Young Americans Don't Fight Back" - very insightful Bruce Levine artic

You know what kiddo, I'm going to level with you.

21 years ago I was screaming the exact same thing as you.

Then I grew up and realized I didn't know it all.

Eh, I never claimed to know it all, I just remember what I've seen around me. And since I've learned to pay attention, there's quite a bit to remember. What sets me off is when someone pretends everything has already been done, and that the whole world is nice and tidy because of ________, and can handed down to us helpless widdle children with a neat widdle bow on top when we finawwy are deemed worthy by people who are at least as ignorant, but with even less of an excuse.

[Caelia]

Re: "8 Reasons Young Americans Don't Fight Back" - very insightful Bruce Levine artic

So I got to thinking a bit more (and no, I didn't hurt myself in the process) about the article and I realized a few things. I suspect that the article isn't truly-despite the title-directed at Generation Y. Generation Y, as a couple of examples, is the least likely to own a television or be involved in a religious group compared to other generations so those points are really moot. I think in many ways these sentiments are regarded by previous generations with negativity and they're looking to my generation to "do something". Sadly, for one reason or another, we aren't equipped to do so. It could be because we've "got it made", or the implementation of authoritarian ideas (note how I didn't say everyone's in cahoots), or even we just don't give a hoot due to other life priorities. This makes it look like in turn that we are apathetic or complacent.

Though I will note how some of my points about adultism, whether people realize it or not, are actually illustrated in this thread.

[Hawkfeathers]

Re: "8 Reasons Young Americans Don't Fight Back" - very insightful Bruce Levine artic

When most of the road is ahead of you, it looks much different than when most of it's behind you. But it's the same road. "To everything there is a season", and all that.

[Caelia]

Re: "8 Reasons Young Americans Don't Fight Back" - very insightful Bruce Levine artic

Agreed, there are things that play out all the time. How much of that, however, is due to just the condition of living in a society compared to true wrongs?

[Ophidia]

Re: "8 Reasons Young Americans Don't Fight Back" - very insightful Bruce Levine artic

Another aspect to look at is the tendency America as a whole has of looking far past its own borders for problems to solve rather than tending its own garden.

We've got people starving and homeless here - but we send relief to Somalia or Afghanistan. We've got a border war in Texas, but we go to fight in the Middle East. FEMA couldn't get it together when Katrina hit, but we sent tons of cash to Japan after the earthquake, or Indonesia after the tsunami.

We're worried about jobs & financial security at home as our infrastructure crumbles - but unpaid volunteers of all ages run off to help people in Third World nations instead of getting some sandwiches to take to the local homeless shelter.

[Caelia]

Re: "8 Reasons Young Americans Don't Fight Back" - very insightful Bruce Levine artic

Much of that is due to functionalism. We're taught we're a privileged nation so it's our duty to help others. And when we try to point out real problems in this country, regardless of the age? We're told we're ingrates in some fashion.

However, much of that is changing. There are many internal groups targeted at solving some of those issues. The problem is they're really small compared to groups that got their start in earlier times thanks to the climate the 60's and 70's. Different times provided a proper outlet for those things. Different resources were available and there was still some sense of community.

Which kinda leads me back to my earlier point: some of these problems have been documented in various civilizations since the dawn of history. How much of these problems are attributed to just side effects of a social construct as opposed to actual moral and ethical violations? How much of that can actually be remedied in each category? What if, to our horror, we are living that remedy? And if so, what do you expect my generation to do?

[Ophidia]

Re: "8 Reasons Young Americans Don't Fight Back" - very insightful Bruce Levine artic

And if so, what do you expect my generation to do?

Well, what are you willing to do?

I understand there are limits to what only one person can do. But two people can do twice as much. Four people, four times as much... on & on. Think closer to home, smaller changes - instead of trying to change the country, or change the world, change what you can.

Small successes can go a long way towards building confidence, and the skills necessary to make larger changes. And when you make a small change, shout it from the rooftops - let everyone know what one person can do.

[Caelia]

Re: "8 Reasons Young Americans Don't Fight Back" - very insightful Bruce Levine artic

Well, what are you willing to do?

I understand there are limits to what only one person can do. But two people can do twice as much. Four people, four times as much... on & on. Think closer to home, smaller changes - instead of trying to change the country, or change the world, change what you can.

Small successes can go a long way towards building confidence, and the skills necessary to make larger changes. And when you make a small change, shout it from the rooftops - let everyone know what one person can do.

Again, the point I'm making. We're told to just "do something". We can't. WE don't have the same outlets of community like others did then. Communities make that solidarity, and there's a correlation between the aforementioned factors (ageist ones included) and the degeneration of communities. Who created the world they don't like? We are inheriting it. If all the things wrong in the world have made us complacent, who shaped it that way?

ADD: Also, if these are the same ailments of society that keep repeating themselves the problem isn't with one generation or another. That means people as a whole will have to a make a willful solution to solve that problem. Is the poison the cure to our complacency, the very same one that John Locke proposed?

[Ophidia]

Re: "8 Reasons Young Americans Don't Fight Back" - very insightful Bruce Levine artic

Again, the point I'm making. We're told to just "do something". We can't. WE don't have the same outlets of community like others did then. Communities make that solidarity, and there's a correlation between the aforementioned factors (ageist ones included) and the degeneration of communities. Who created the world they don't like? We are inheriting it. If all the things wrong in the world have made us complacent, who shaped it that way?

Have you bothered to meet your neighbors, or do you live so far out in the boonies that you don't have any? Communities are built over time, by helping one another out, by watching over one another, by creating connections.

[Caelia]

Re: "8 Reasons Young Americans Don't Fight Back" - very insightful Bruce Levine artic

Have you bothered to meet your neighbors, or do you live so far out in the boonies that you don't have any? Communities are built over time, by helping one another out, by watching over one another, by creating connections.

My locale has no bearing on American culture and its increasing isolationist attitude. Who focuses on the self as evidenced by this thread repeatedly with its sense of "not in my backyard" mentality as you display? The product of a previous generation's work isn't the responsibility of those who raised them. You don't like my generation's approach to things. The previous generation needs to take responsibility since they are the progenitors. Generation Y is not the majority, meaning that if previous generations are displeased they will have to do some more footwork since they are the majority. John Locke, if you remember anything about the Second Treatise of Government, wrote how it was the majority who decided the contentment of "the way things are". Expecting someone else to do YOUR work is just as much a sign of complacency on your generation as it is mine. Why? It means you are content to wallow in the problems until someone else takes care of them. Why are people so distracted by "stuff" in my generation? You admit yourself, the previous generation gave it to them. Who gave them community?

But since you have evaded answering my questions you have effectively answered that you have no real solution to society's ills either, which means we continue the process until we all putter out. These problems are the perpetuation of a previous generation, who perpetuate the problems of that previous generation, et cetera. The problem, therefore, is within the structure of the society and until we come up with a better social structure (which John Locke also gives) nothing changes, even if one espouses a new form of government.

[AzazelEblis]

Re: "8 Reasons Young Americans Don't Fight Back" - very insightful Bruce Levine artic

When most of the road is ahead of you, it looks much different than when most of it's behind you. But it's the same road. "To everything there is a season", and all that.

I disagree that it's the same road. The previous generation had clear ways forward, clear injustices that were less deniable, and less obifuscation distributing misinformation. Now? Postmodernism leading to Hipsteritis in the absence of something to build anew. We literally have "Cool-hunters" who's job it is to strip-mine the culture of the youth, alienating us from our own generation's cultural centers. British youth have the advantage of depending more heavily on centralized government, only to watch that rug get pulled out from underneath them.

Those British youth are new to this least-productive motive, survival in desperation. When people fail in a more Socially-minded state, there's a safety net. Those riots were not the actions of even children who know where to direct their rage - it was desperate, pent up, and hasty. Any business owner appeard to be either a member of, or servile to the super-wealthy that they see devouring tax money that was already allocated toward the programs that give them a chance.

Where's our safety net? Oh yeah, those same people who taught more about mob mentality than manners; who, on average, demonstrate more about selfishness than service - the aptly named "Me" Generation. Yeah, we're getting familiar with desperation. While some get nice jobs, most of us are just left out, be that flipping burgers or years-long applying for burger-flipping jobs that won't pay off the debt. We simply weren't taught to expect much from y'all old farts, except for the ones we know personally, and lean on the most.

[Ophidia]

Re: "8 Reasons Young Americans Don't Fight Back" - very insightful Bruce Levine artic

My locale has no bearing on American culture and its increasing isolationist attitude. Who focuses on the self as evidenced by this thread repeatedly with its sense of "not in my backyard" mentality as you display?

Are you referring to me personally here, or older Americans as a whole? If it's me, you don't know me as well as you're implying. The only thing that I'm 'not in my back yard' about is a nuclear storage facility in Yucca Mountain.

The product of a previous generation's work isn't the responsibility of those who raised them. You don't like my generation's approach to things. The previous generation needs to take responsibility since they are the progenitors. Generation Y is not the majority, meaning that if previous generations are displeased they will have to do some more footwork since they are the majority. John Locke, if you remember anything about the Second Treatise of Government, wrote how it was the majority who decided the contentment of "the way things are". Expecting someone else to do YOUR work is just as much a sign of complacency on your generation as it is mine. Why? It means you are content to wallow in the problems until someone else takes care of them. Why are people so distracted by "stuff" in my generation? You admit yourself, the previous generation gave it to them. Who gave them community?

But since you have evaded answering my questions you have effectively answered that you have no real solution to society's ills either, which means we continue the process until we all putter out.

I'm not evading anything. I didn't realize you expected answers from a single person in a forum thread in point-by-point format. I had to go to work, which kept my reply shorter than if I'd had all night.

Personally, as a kid who was moved every 6 months, I had no expectation of community from my parents. They had no expectation of community from their parents, either - my father's family were war refugees & my mother's family were share-croppers. Most of their peers were in the same boats. Whatever 'community' I had changed constantly, as did many of my friends, who were kids of military personnel. Nowadays, in my immediate neighborhood, it's the same thing with people drifting in & out every three months. We're the ones staying put while all our neighbors' homes are foreclosed on or the renters get evicted/move on. I go out & introduce myself to them, and the next time I see them, they're a different family.

The reason I asked you what your 'neighborhood' was like is because I've lived way out in the country, with few or no neighbors, I've also lived in neighborhoods where just being a young female put me at high physical risk if I went on any kind of door-to-door campaign, and it is harder to organize people when your physical access to them is limited. Today, people limit themselves from their own neighbors, from their own communities, not so much with physical distance but with all that distracting stuff - t.v., video games, computers, phones. And it's not just people under 30 who do it - you and I aren't physically sitting in a cafe or a bookstore talking to one another, we're both somewhere on a computer or device with Internet access.

The reason I have no broad, sweeping solution to all of America's ills is because practically speaking, it probably won't happen all at once. I am not a person who can follow all the threads of the sins of a civilization to the heart of their mazes at the same time. Something cataclysmic would have to occur in order for people to take to the streets in revolutionary spirit. So until whatever cataclysmic event comes along, yes, conditions will remain pretty much as they are now, spiraling into eventual entropy and the death of western civilization as we know it.

That's why I believe people (of all ages) need to think smaller, closer to home. If parents didn't leave their kids a community ready-made, then the kids should build one. If a person can't even go out and find some common ground with a neighbor, how do they think they're going to organize anything on a grander scale? If parents didn't provide kids with sustainable food, plant some corn & beans on patios & rooftops, and get a backyard chicken or two. If a person can't find the means to feed themselves without government hand-outs, how are they going to feed themselves if they destroy that government? Volunteer to help someone make household repairs, or create a playground in a vacant lot - if the government collapses, someone still needs to make safe structures.

In other words, it makes no difference at all if a person whines about how little the previous generation left them to work with. Doesn't matter how bitter or resentful that person is, or how vehement they are, or how offended they are or how frightened. Whining & complaining make no difference in the world whatsoever.

[Caelia]

Re: "8 Reasons Young Americans Don't Fight Back" - very insightful Bruce Levine artic

Ok, it's not letting me quote you and eats the post in the process so I will address you, perz.

I asked twice about the differentiation between true social wrongs and what are merely social trade-offs. Twice. It wasn't even acknowledged, which tends to look like an attempt to sidestep.

It should be obvious it wasn't you personally except where you have fulfilled your duties in the social contract. Just a few pages ago you were spout individual responsibility and how the previous generation has been excused of its social contract. That's right, you said the previous generation has already passed its values and work on to this generation, which any "wrongs" were already righted. That means your implication about culpability negates a need for community.

The point is someone, somewhere instilled complacency into my generation. That means the previous generation, if they didn't want to pass that on, failed in their social contract. You yourself have expressed the individualization of the Western culture and subsequent isolationist ideas. However, where there is a sense of social contract there is more human interaction offline. The riots haven't been virtual after all.

These "trappings" were not made by our generation. Who instilled the idea we should be focused on them, provided the vast assumption we actually make enough to afford them (seriously, they can't even compare finances with other generations because there aren't enough of us gainfully employed)? That's right, the previous generation. Even if you blame Barney the Dinosaur he is the makings of someone from the Baby Boomer generation. If you don't like the values instilled, it's your failure of the social contract as well. I'll also reiterate the ideas that technology distracts us is a cop-out. Most of the riots are disenfranchised youth who also met in person.

And that's why I brought up John Locke's ideas. While many still disagree, he felt you have to give up something in return for the benefits of a society. However, part of your duty in that society is to participate and teach the customs. Obviously complacency isn't the custom. That's also why I brought up adultism. Those egalitarian ideas rely on a tradition of unquestioned authority. When that idea is instilled, guess what happens? With adultism unchecked, it leads to a sense that the authority figures aren't to be questioned. Period.

Asking us to reform based on transmogrification is also daft and outright fantastical. You are going on the vast assumption that, to your own admission, the individual can somehow transform. When no one participates in the community, especially the progenitors of the newest generation, things aren't passed on. Someone will have to instill the idea of critical thinking, creativity, and other values the previous generation finds lacking in mine. That means everyone will have to take part in that generation.

ADD: I'm also addressing these issues because they are ongoing worldwide since the dawn of civilization. That means it's a problem in the construct.

[LadyGarnetRose]

Re: "8 Reasons Young Americans Don't Fight Back" - very insightful Bruce Levine artic

I disagree that it's the same road. The previous generation had clear ways forward, clear injustices that were less deniable, and less obifuscation distributing misinformation. Now? Postmodernism leading to Hipsteritis in the absence of something to build anew. We literally have "Cool-hunters" who's job it is to strip-mine the culture of the youth, alienating us from our own generation's cultural centers. British youth have the advantage of depending more heavily on centralized government, only to watch that rug get pulled out from underneath them.

You say that we had clear way, and injustices that were less deniable really? Look up West Memphis 3. 20 years ago though, I was you so it was the generation BEFORE me that put those boys in jail.


"Cool-Hunters" have always existed, they were called talent scouts though. The name changed job description didn't.

Hmm the thread is why American Youth don't fight back. When did we cross the pond?

Those British youth are new to this least-productive motive, survival in desperation. When people fail in a more Socially-minded state, there's a safety net. Those riots were not the actions of even children who know where to direct their rage - it was desperate, pent up, and hasty. Any business owner appeard to be either a member of, or servile to the super-wealthy that they see devouring tax money that was already allocated toward the programs that give them a chance.

Where's our safety net? Oh yeah, those same people who taught more about mob mentality than manners; who, on average, demonstrate more about selfishness than service - the aptly named "Me" Generation. Yeah, we're getting familiar with desperation. While some get nice jobs, most of us are just left out, be that flipping burgers or years-long applying for burger-flipping jobs that won't pay off the debt. We simply weren't taught to expect much from y'all old farts, except for the ones we know personally, and lean on the most.

Yeah the "Me" generation. Your last sentence actually shows something. You are most definitely part of the "Me" generation. Because guess what kiddo, nobody owes you anything.

[AzazelEblis]

Re: "8 Reasons Young Americans Don't Fight Back" - very insightful Bruce Levine artic

You say that we had clear way, and injustices that were less deniable really? Look up West Memphis 3. 20 years ago though, I was you so it was the generation BEFORE me that put those boys in jail.

20 Years ago... so does that make you a late baby boomer, or an early GenX'er? You have me at a disadvantage here - if you don't want to show your exact age publicly for a conversation about age, then neither will I. And until you use those West Memphis 3 to actually *express* something, it's kinda nonsequitor.

"Cool-Hunters" have always existed, they were called talent scouts though. The name changed job description didn't.

Actually, yes it did. Talent scouts look for people in existing genres or fields, where cool hunters' focus is entirely new genres popping up. The effect of that difference is significant - a talent scout would go for someone with talent rather than interviewing any kid who looks like they belong to some manner of unfamiliar subculture to examine the marketting dynamic.

Hmm the thread is why American Youth don't fight back. When did we cross the pond?

Since when was our nation that friggin Unique that we can't compare and contrast it with another nation with different results?

Yeah the "Me" generation. Your last sentence actually shows something. You are most definitely part of the "Me" generation. Because guess what kiddo, nobody owes you anything.

I will admit I was hasty in that label, since there is a bit of contention over who it applies to - Baby Boomers, or GenXer's and myself mixed together.

I suppose you came along in total isolation, pulled yourself up by your home-made bootstraps, and never had to owe anything to anybody, nor ever found that you needed a break. Meanwhile, down here on planet earth....